AMY PORTERFIELD: Hey there, welcome back to another episode of The Online Marketing Made Easy Podcast. I’m your host, Amy Porterfield, and today’s episode is extra special.
I got the opportunity to interview someone who I just really admire and that is Seth Godin. Seth has a brand new book coming out called This Is Marketing: You can’t be seen until you learn to see.
Guys, this book is so important. It’s a must read. I have to share a few things with you before you actually listen to this episode. Obviously you know who Seth Godin is. If you have read any of his stuff you know how important his message is.
With that maybe you can understand that I was a lot nervous for this interview. It’s rare that I get nervous interviewing anybody so I was surprised to kind of feel my jitters right before I got on live with Seth today.
I literally ended the interview ten minutes ago. I just want to put it out there that every bit of my personality is pretty much stripped from this interview because I was so nervous.
I don’t tell you that to put down myself or beat myself up because I’m actually not. I kind of love the fact that I still get giddy and excited and anxious about talking to people that are making such a huge difference in the online business world and in the marketing world, to be specific with Seth.
Yeah, I was really nervous to the point that I forgot to plug in the correct microphone. Yeah, I did that. I don’t know if the editors can fix it or if you’ll even notice it but because I like to tell you guys the gritty, messy, behind-the-scenes kind of stuff I didn’t plug in the right mic and I was incredibly nervous up until the middle.
But, here’s what kind of got me out of my nervousness in this interview and something I want to share with you. You will hear Seth talk about course creators. He’s going to talk about how we spend too much time in the content and not enough time, money, effort, focus in creating the community of people that are learning from your content in your course.
It just hit me in the craziest way. I can’t wait for you to hear that part of the interview. I kind of just want you to forward to it…but I don’t. You’ve got to listen to the whole thing because it’s so good.
Here’s what I want to tell you. Timing is everything. I just finished two full days of a workshop I created called Finished where I helped 100 people get ready to finish their course by December 31, 2018.
At the time of this recording we have about two months left and their goal is to finish their digital course once and for all. So we went from 8 a.m. until 9 p.m. two days in a row. I taught and answered a million questions from stage and my students came together and they were just dedicated, super focused, and just in it…In it to win it.
In the interview you will hear Seth talk about this idea of serving the smallest viable market. When I think about the hundred people that came together in San Diego just a few days ago (if my voice sounds a little bit off it’s because of that. I’ve been talking on stage for two days) the community they created, because they have been in a small Facebook group leading up to this, the community is incredible.
They showed up like they were family. They talked about each other by name. They knew what each other were actually creating in their courses. They knew their struggles, their frustrations, their triumphs. They knew each other.
I have never had that experience at a live event before. They felt familiar to each other and they were there for each other. They talked about supporting each other. At one point in the workshop this one woman was really struggling with her title and ideal customer avatar.
By then she should have been over that and she just wasn’t. I asked, “Hey, will seven of your take her out to lunch when we go to lunch and love up on her and help her and get her past this obstacle?”
Probably 50 hands out of the 100 people popped up in the audience. That doesn’t happen in just a regular Facebook group.
So when you hear Seth talk about community and how it’s more important than the content that you put in your online course I want you to know that was profound to me. It literally is going to affect how I teach my brand new course coming out, Digital Course Academy®️.
The course is coming out in January of 2019. It’s going to affect how I teach and it’s also going to affect how I put together the community for Digital Course Academy®️. I don’t know how. I don’t know what I’m going to do but I’m inspired.
I was so touched by what Seth shared. But timing’s everything because I don’t think I would have heard him how I heard him today a week ago. But after my experience of these 100 people that came together and felt like family I get what he is saying.
I want you to pay close attention to that, especially if you are a digital course creator or if you want to go on a journey with me so I can help you create your course in 2019 or beyond. Listen closely what Seth has to share., actually throughout this entire interview.
I truly hope you love it as much as I have. I hope it touches you in the same way.
Before we get to this amazing interview, and it’s short and sweet just like Seth is in all of his communication online, we really get down to the point in the interview. But, before we get there I want to give a listener shout out.
This one is to the Bootstrap Boutique. I loved what they said:
“Take notes. It’s hard to listen to Amy’s podcast without a pen in hand because she delivers so much actionable advice in each episode. Give it a listen and get ready to up your game.”
This could not be more true for this episode. Not because of me but because of Seth. Thank you so much, the Bootstrap Boutique. I really appreciate your kind words.
If you would like to leave a review make sure to subscribe to my podcast on iTunes or wherever you listen and leave a review because I might just give you a shout out on my podcast.
The final thing I’ll tell you is that this episode is sponsored by the women at Cultivate What Matters. They have been in business for seven years creating Power Sheets. Have you heard of their Power Sheets?
They are incredible. They have helped thousands of people across the world live the life they want and they can help you do the same. I’m a huge fan of Power Sheets. I want you to get your hands on some for the new year.
Here’s the deal. Imagine how it would feel if you were able to create anything you wanted, if you were told anything is possible. The Power Sheets help you do so. They help you get intentional around all of your goals.
They help you create goals with clarity and purpose. You can achieve the goals that really, truly matter to you. I know I have created goals in the past that I thought were good and lofty and really juicy. But, in the end they didn’t really matter to me.
If you want to create goals that matter, I always say create goals with soul, then you’ve got to check out Power Sheets. Go to https://www.amyporterfield.com/powersheets for all of the details.
I won’t make you wait any longer. Let’s go ahead and jump into my interview with Seth Godin.
AMY: Seth, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being here.
SETH GODIN: It’s good to talk to you Amy.
AMY: So glad to have you here. At this point I usually ask my guests to tell my audience a little bit about themselves. However, to be quite honest, my audience knows you well. So, because we can kind of skip that, I was wondering if you could give us a little glimpse behind the scenes and tell us what a typical day looks like in your world.
SETH: I’ve worked really hard to not ever have a typical day. I was the person that used to work next to you in the cubicle who was always making a ruckus and a typical day is not my friend.
It could go from not speaking to another human being for eight hours and just typing. It could go from that all the way to giving a talk or engaging with some of the coaches or people I work with around the world. It’s all over the map and I like it that way.
AMY: I like it that way too, definitely. Your new book is called This is Marketing: You can’t be seen until you learn to see. It’s such an incredible book that is packed with wisdom. First of all, thank you so much for writing this book.
SETH: That’s so nice of you to say. When you talk to someone early in the process it’s really nice to hear that. Thank you, Amy.
AMY: Definitely. I thought we could start out by you telling us your definition of modern marketing and what we should be measuring.
SETH: What marketers do is make change happen. We are responsible for that. If no change happens there is no marketing. If a change happens that’s on us. How do you make a change happen?
You used to do it by buying attention really cheap and then turning it into money so you could buy more attention. We call that advertising. The world has shifted and that doesn’t work anymore.
What works instead is making things better by making better things. What works, instead, is work that matters for people who care. I guess what we ought to be measuring is not clicks or percentages or any of that other stuff unless we’re fully a direct marketer.
I think what we ought to be measuring is who would miss us if we didn’t show up and what is the value of the change we’re making in the world?
AMY: Who would miss us if we didn’t show up? I love that. And truly have never really looked at measuring my marketing that way so I think this is going to resonate with so many of my listeners. We have really big hearts, my listeners do, and they really care so I know your book is going to resonate with them.
You talk about the fact that growth happens when a person focuses their attention and efforts on the smallest viable market and you serve the heck out of them. If you don’t mind, can I read a little excerpt from your book?
SETH: Oh great. Let’s do it.
AMY: You said: “Find a corner of the market that can’t wait for your attention. Go to their extremes. Find a position on the map where you and you alone are the perfect answer. Overwhelm this group’s wants and dreams and desires with your care, your attention, and your focus. Make change happen. Change that’s so profound people can’t help but talk about it.”
First of all, brilliant! My audience wants to make a huge change but I have to tell you, Seth, they are very worried about niching down. You talk about the smallest viable audience and that kind of freaks them out because they feel as though they won’t grow if they do so.
Can you talk to me about that?
SETH: If that’s the only thing someone gets out of the book it was worth 100 times what they paid for it.
AMY: I hear you.
SETH: Your audience, like most people, has been seduced and tricked into believing a couple of things; first of all, a couple of things, that they can reach the whole world. You can’t no one can.
They believe that being a mass marketer is what you’re supposed to be. Nah, not really. And, ironically, that the safest thing to do is to be big. The safest thing to do is to be average. If you do that no one can blame you and if you do that you’re not being exclusionary, you’re not “niching down”.
In fact, every important brand, every single one (Nike, Starbucks, Airbnb, Google), go down the list, every one that’s modern and less than 20 years old started by serving a tiny group of people, serving them in a very specific way putting all of their chips onto Red 42.
If Red 42 doesn’t come up they are out. But, you get to pick who you’re going to serve so only serve the people you want to serve that you care enough to serve. They just opened a knitting store down the street from me. It’s doing great.
It’s doing great in a world of Amazon and a world where you can buy everything they sell cheaper somewhere else because it’s not for me and it’s probably not for you. It’s for a very particular person who’s looking for a very particular thing.
If you don’t have the guts to be a meaningful specific then why do you think you’re going to succeed as a wandering generality?
AMY: That’s so very true. In your book you wrote a case study about the success of an online meditation center. You detailed eight reasons how this online business has made the impact they have.
One that I’d love for you to talk about even more is Reason #7: At every step along the way create and relieve tension as people progress in their journey toward their goals.
This is a very big statement. I think it’s very important. Can you talk to us about it?
SETH: What do we mean by tension? It’s easy to believe that what you’re supposed to do is simply relieve tension like Excedrin gets rid of a tension headache. End of discussion.
But everything we do that causes change also causes tension. It’s the tension that it might not work. I might get left behind. I might pay too much. I might buy the wrong one. I might not like the future I’m signing up for. All of these things happen before we change in any way.
You felt that tension before you went to high school for the first day. You felt that tension when you bought a new car. It wasn’t just happiness. If it was we wouldn’t need car salesmen.
Car salesmen have as their job, when they are doing their job right, helping us through the tension. The tension of it might not work. What Susan has done in building her online meditation center is create tension along various steps.
The first step is to give her your email address and she will send a video a couple of times a week about meditating. A lot of people don’t give her the email address because they don’t trust her.
If you are going to give your email address there is some tension. What if she turns around and sells it to a spammer? Now you start getting the emails. They are working for you.
Then she will say something like, “Do you want to sign up for the paid session which has this, this, and this.” Suddenly there is new tension because she has brought money into the equation and money always comes with tension.
My point is that what professional marketers do is create tension on purpose. It was interesting, your program’s called Online Marketing Made Easy. Is that right?
SETH: The word “easy” is really interesting. What it actually is, it is made simple but it’s not easy. It’s difficult. It’s simple because all you have to do is a lot of hard work with generosity and empathy. But, those three things are really hard. They are just simple.
AMY: You make a great point there. When I’m thinking about tension…Let’s say you ask somebody to give you their email or you ask somebody to buy and you’re creating this tension, I think it will make new marketers question what they will do about that tension.
If somebody’s feeling it how do they relieve it? What do you say about that?
SETH: There are two choices in every situation. You can either relieve it by walking away, which creates a new feeling in your brain that you missed out on something; or, you can relieve it by going forward, which creates a new feeling in your brain that you got something you wanted.
Those are the only two choices, toward or away, in or out. The mistake we make, particularly if we think marketing is a referendum on us and our value as humans, is we bend over backward to never get rejected.
Because we’re doing that we get a whole bunch of maybes. Maybes are the simplest way to relieve tension, “I’ll just look at it later.”
If you are living with maybes you are almost never going to get a “yes”. Once I say “maybe” to you I’ve relieved the tension. I have no risks going forward. I’m done. It is much more valuable to you and to the person you seek to serve to challenge them to give you a “no” because a “no” means you never have to think about this again. A “no” means you’ve thought it through. You never want to do this.
A “no” is okay. A “no” is a gift. A “no” lets you know that the person who just said “no” to you, it’s not for them. At least not right now. Okay, great, I learned something. But all of the maybes you are stacking up, you’re just hiding.
AMY: That’s so true. What does it look like to challenge someone to give you a “no”?
SETH: For example, if you’re running a conference on Friday and ticket sales end on Wednesday at noon and someone comes to you Wednesday at 11 and says, “My boss is out of town, can I sign up tomorrow?”
The right answer is, “No, I’m sorry, you can’t. Ticket sales close in an hour. Would you like to come?” They can say “yes” and they can say “no” but in that moment it’s one or the other.
When we are shopping in a typical mall the sales person asks, “Can I help you?” That is a question that means nothing, You say, “I’m just looking,” which is an answer that means nothing, what you have basically said is “maybe.” There’s no enrollment there. No one has raised their hand and said, “I’m interested.”
Compare that to what happens when a lifeguard approaches someone who is drowning. When a lifeguard approaches someone who is drowning and offers a life raft they take it because they are enrolled in the journey of not drowning.
That’s our goal as marketers, to find people who want to go where we are going, who want to experience what we are offering. Then we can teach them. We don’t market at them, we market with them. We teach them what they need to know to go from here to there.
The marketing seminar, which I run, at TheMarketingSeminar.com was built first. Then, after 6,000 people had taken it that’s what led to this book. What I know about those 6,000 people is they were enrolled in the journey.
I didn’t have to show up every day and hammer them to get back in it. They were in it. They wanted to be part of it. They were committed. Marketing to people who are committed is 50 times easier than yelling at strangers.
AMY: I just had this a-ha moment as you were talking. A couple of days ago I finished a two-day workshop where I invited 100 people of my list of hundreds of thousands to come to San Diego with me and let me help them finish their online course.
For two days we drilled down in finishing the digital course for 100 people. At first I thought, 100 people, I like to serve hundreds of thousands of people. I like my events to be hundreds and hundreds of people because I think it might feed my ego, to be quite honest, to see all of these people show up to hear from me.
It was just 100 people and, holy cow, they showed up like I’ve never seen before. I didn’t have to talk them into doing the work. I didn’t have to ask them to stay focused and get it done. They just showed up that way. It was profound to me so I’m assuming that’s kind of what you’re talking about.
SETH: Exactly. Then, here’s what happened. They all left San Diego and people asked what they did this weekend. Then they told them about you. That’s what used to be called advertising. People telling other people is how we grow today.
If you think you can build a funnel where you can buy Facebook ads and buy Google ads and make enough money from the funnel to do it again that’s a very rare thing to pull off and it’s going to get harder.
As soon as you figure out how to do it someone’s going to bid a nickel more than you are bidding for that attention. This passive income funnel where you will figure out how to put people through a squeeze page, there was a moment in time where some people go away with that but that’s not how you build a brand that matters. It’s not how you make the contribution you want.
Instead, you find people who want to be found. You talk to them in ways they want to be talked to. You take them on a journey to where they want to go.
AMY: I love it. Seth, understanding how to position our products or programs or services in a really noisy online space can be tough to figure out. I hear it from my students all the time. In your book you say that positioning is done as a service for your customer.
Tell us what you mean by that and how my listeners can apply this concept to their own businesses.
SETH: Well, it’s common to hear people talk about differentiation. Differentiation is selfish. It says, “I want more than my share of income. How do I show that I’m different so I’ll get it?”
Positioning, done properly, is a service. Here’s the way I think about it. The person you are seeking to serve is overwhelmed with noise. They are confused. There are too many choices. Can you help them sort through their choices so they can pick what they want?
A simple example is potato chips. We could build axes up and down, left and right with X and Y. That makes a quadrant with four corners. Let’s say the x-axis is things like whether it is a thin chip or a thick chip. The up and down axes are things like whether it’s an organic, fancy gourmet chip or a supermarket brand.
In those four corners there are four kinds of chips. They are totally different. If you show up at the step of the person who is making $9-bag Bespoke Gourmet Hawaiian Thick-Cut Organic potato chips and you say to that person, “You got any Lays?”
What they should not do is try to persuade you that they make a better chip because they don’t. They make a different chip. It is a chip that, if you are looking for it, is the one you want. But what they should do is walk you down the aisle and say, “The Lays are right here. Enjoy them,” because their chips are not for you.
You wanted a thin, cheap chip. They are busy selling something else. So what we have to do as a marketer is figure out what the axes are. Don’t just draw axes that somehow magically make us the winner. Draw axes the way the consumer thinks about axes.
If we were going to do this exercise for cars. I think we could figure out where the Prius lives, where the Tesla lives, where the Ferrari lives, and where the Toyota Corolla lives. We have an innate understanding of that.
The reason Tesla did so well at the beginning was because Elon understood there was a big, fat hole that his audience wanted him to fill so he did. Where we get into trouble is saying, “How do I force myself onto the grid,” as opposed to asking, “Where on the grid do my customers need me to go?”
AMY: That makes you look at your competition a whole lot differently. Wow, that’s good stuff. You talk about how we, as smart marketers, do our best work when we focus on the change our customers want. Instead of just talking about the specs of our products or services we speak about the emotion instead.
A lot of my students will talk about how many modules there are in their course and how many lessons and the PDFs and the support and all that stuff. You’re saying not to talk about that and talk about the emotion. Can you give me more on that?
SETH: I’ll try to make it specific. I think we can agree that for most of your students most of their students don’t finish the course.
SETH: Does that mean the course is a failure? Does that mean it didn’t work at all? After all, if I had a leaky faucet in my house and called the plumber and the plumber came and after she left the faucet was still leaking that wouldn’t be okay.
I hired the plumber to make the faucet stop leaking. But, if I take one of these courses is that what I’m hiring you to do, create a course where I finish every single lesson? Probably not.
What I’m probably doing when I take a course is change my confidence. It is changing the way I see myself when I look in the mirror, finding inside of me the thing I knew all along.
After all, if all I want is the facts about how to macramé or run an online business or whatever. Those are free online. I don’t need to pay money for a course to learn those things.
What I am seeking is how it makes me feel to be connected to other people. What I’m seeking is a shift in how tall I am or how I could see myself making an impact. I can’t find that by looking at your checkboxes.
I can’t find that by having an understanding that you have 18 chapters and this person has 16 chapters. That’s not what I’m looking for.
First of all, I think a lot of online courses need help in order to deliver what they seek to deliver because they are too focused on content and not focused enough on community. Leaving that part aside I have found, having taught many, many people over 30 years, that what people really want is to become a version of themselves who they can be friendly with and proud of.
AMY: You just gave a huge gift to online course creators so thank you for that. I can’t help but hit on what you just said about the idea of too much content and not enough community. Can you talk to me about that one?
SETH: I had the most popular Skillshare course in its category and the most popular Udemy course. I like both of those platforms. The videos were totally worth it. But what I found was I wasn’t changing lives the way I knew I could.
We built our own platform where there are only a few hours of video, maybe ten at the most, but people do it for 100 days, sometimes an hour a day or five hours a day. What are they doing for 100 days?
The platform we built is about them engaging with each other and about them engaging with the work. Here’s what I’ve discovered. In all of my research I have never met a toddler who learned how to walk by reading a book or watching a YouTube video.
The way you learn how to walk is that you walk poorly, you fall down, and then you do it again and again and again. If we can create environments where our students feel safe the same way a toddler feels safe we can create an environment where they are actually going to learn something.
If there’s content there to help them that’s great. But, that’s not what they need because the internet is filled with content. It’s over filled. What they need is the safe place and the tension that pushes them forward.
AMY: If we talk about a Facebook group and it’s a community that a course creator has created to go along with their course content and they want more engagement in that community and want people to communicate with each other and help each other and ask great questions how do you create that tension in the community so that it happens?
Engagement is something my students struggle with a lot.
SETH: Let’s think about a college campus. Imagine that the cafeteria and the commons at the college campus was one giant table. It wouldn’t work. If you didn’t show up tomorrow no one would miss you.
It wouldn’t work because it’s too hard to talk to anybody or see anyone you recognize. Facebook groups can get enormous amounts of activity but it tends to go in bursts. It’s hard to get to the magic number of seven.
When there are seven people in a circle they notice when there are only six. When there are seven people in a circle connections are truly made. We’re doing a gathering for the coaches from the AltMBA in December.
We’ve had 84 coaches. They have all been students at the AltMBA and then we made them coaches. None of them have physical proximity to each other. They live in Australia. They live in Germany. We invited 84 people to New York. They had to fly there at their own expense and more than 77 are coming. That just astonishes me.
AMY: Yes. I agree.
SETH: The reason it’s working is because our provost, Kelly, has created these circles of seven, these groups of people who feel like they are part of something and then that transfers to the NextG circle around them. Now you are at 49.
This is much, much harder work than making a PDF. This isn’t about teaching two people. It’s about creating circles of people. At the beginning the tension gets in your way because people don’t want to join a circle because they are worried if they do they will have to face shame.
They are worried that if they do their fears will become real. They are worried that if they do they will let other people down. Getting them into the circle is not easy. We have to spend at least as much time getting them into the circle as we spent getting them into the course.
Once they are in it then extraordinary magic happens. Now, not only are they transformed they are surrounded by people who are transformed.
AMY: I love this idea of these smaller circles. But when you have a community of people, let’s say 1,000 people sign up for your online course and you want a community for them, how do you create these smaller circles?
SETH: First, I didn’t tell you to have 1,000 people to work with your circle.
AMY: That’s a good point.
SETH: We have had 6,000 people in the marketing seminar and we figured out how to make sub groups. We figured out how to encourage people to find the others. There are probably 100 different ways you could do that but all of them require effort.
It’s the effort of saying, “Wow, I just charged this person $200.” Giving them digital stuff for $200 means your profit margin is $200. Maybe you should put $12 worth of labor into this to find them six other people by hand.
This mindset that says this is a gold mine is not true. The vast majority of people who don’t have a huge following, who are busy trying to build an online course because it seems safe and fun and easy and profitable are going to fail.
They are going to fail because it’s not that easy. There isn’t a shortage of online content. There is a shortage of connection.
AMY: It makes me really rethink how we connect people in our courses and what we can do, that extra effort and time and energy to create those groups where they can engage on a deeper level. I love that. I always talk about community in the groups and support but this is different so thank you for this because it will allow me to be a better teacher. I appreciate you for bringing this up.
SETH: You’re welcome.
AMY: I know we have covered a lot and you shared a lot of wisdom and helpful insight. The beautiful thing about you is you can say a lot in just a few short words so I knew we would have a shorter interview than I usually do.
But, before I let you go I was wondering if we could touch on one more thing and that is this idea to always be testing. Can you share with me your thoughts around that concept?
SETH: The manufacturing mindset is to make it perfect because every time there’s a defect you get in trouble. You have to deal with customer service. You have to give a refund. Make it perfect.
Once something gets pretty good, what we do is spend most of our effort making it perfect. The white table cloth with one drop of red wine on it, we need to make it perfect.
The problem with that is you can’t keep growing. You don’t know and I don’t know what’s going to work next. If we’re spending all of our time making it perfect we’re stuck.
The alternative is to have a mindset to always be testing because this medium is not TV, this medium is not how you are going to reach a million people at the same time. Every time I interact with someone it’s going to be different. Challenge yourself to regularly act differently with different people and pay attention to what’s working.
The act of always testing lets you off perfect talk and lets you, instead, be the generous explorer who is figuring out a new way to serve the people you already signed up to serve.
AMY: That’s so good. Seth, this has been so valuable. I can’t wait to listen to this again and again to really let it all sink in and then take some action with it. Besides grabbing a copy of your new book, which I highly recommend guys (I’m going to link to it in my show notes because I think this is a must read for all of us) where can people find out more about you?
SETH: If you go to seths.blog or just type seth into your favorite search engine, there I am. At seths.blog/tim I’ve got a video about the book for free and some other stuff. If you want to see how I’m running a course we would love to have you. We encourage you to steal as many ideas as you want. The next version of the Marketing Seminar will happen in January.
AMY: I can’t wait. Thank you so much, Seth. Have a wonderful day.
SETH: It’s a real pleasure. Thank you for the time.
AMY: There you have it. I hope you loved this interview with Seth as much as I did. I just thought it was incredibly insightful. I hope you loved the conversation around community as well.
I know I’m going to be sharing more and more about how digital course creators like you and me can actually build a community around our course content that will motivate and inspire and engage at a whole new level. It’s something I’m going to be thinking about more and more and sharing with all of you.
I also wanted to remind you that this episode is brought to you by Cultivate What Matters and, specifically, their Power Sheets which help you set intentional goals that are clear and full of purpose.
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There is trusted goal coaching on every page so you stay motivated and on track. They also encourage you to refresh and refocus your goals every single season. These are a must. I want you to check out Power Sheets. Go to https://www.amyporterfield.com/powersheets.
Thank you so much for tuning in to this very special episode. I cannot wait to connect with you again next week.