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#522: The Gratitude Series: Glo Atanmo

Listen To My Latest Podcast Episode:#522: The Gratitude Series: Glo Atanmo

PATRICE WASHINGTON: “You know, as an entrepreneur, of course, there's so many things that cross your mind, Amy. One of mine was, like, ‘What's going to happen to my business? Will I have to give up half of my business? Or will I have to pay alimony? Or will I have to…?’ And I had to consider carefully all of those considerations before I even moved forward.  

“But one thing I will say as an entrepreneur, we are creators. We are people who solve problems, right? We bring solutions to problems. And even in knowing that some of those things could be a possibility—in my case, thank God, they were not. We were able to move through this amicably and very quickly—but even knowing that as a creator, I also had to trust that if I created it before, I'll create it again.” 

INTRO: I’m Amy Porterfield, ex-corporate girl turned CEO of a multi-seven-figure business. But it wasn't all that long ago that I lacked the confidence, the budget, and the time to focus on growing my small-but-mighty business. Fast forward past many failed attempts and lessons learned, and you'll see the business I have today, one that changes lives and gives me more freedom than I ever thought possible, one that used to only exist as a daydream. I created the Online Marketing Made Easy podcast to give you simple, actionable, step-by-step strategies to help you do the same. If you're an ambitious entrepreneur, or one in the making, who's looking to create a business that makes an impact and a life you love, you're in the right place, friend. Let's get started. 

AMY PORTERFIELD: Hey, there, friend. Welcome back to Online Marketing Made Easy. 

Listen, I’m not going to beat around the bush or take a long time to set up today's episode, because we have a lot to cover. On the show today, I’ve invited two brave, amazing women who are willing to get vulnerable and honest about some big life changes they experienced as entrepreneurs. We're talking about breaking up a partnership; divorce; and big, scary transitions. 

First up, I'm chatting with Patrice Washington, a familiar name here on the podcast, and she's going to share about going through a divorce while still running a successful business. Something very fresh and new for her, happening right now. And next, you'll hear from Meghan Linsey, a singer-songwriter who is going to share about her experience with breaking up with her business partner, which also happened to be her boyfriend, and how that changed the trajectory of her career. And then lastly, I'm going solo to share about the transition I experienced last year when my chief marketing officer, Chloe, decided to leave the team after seven years. And let me tell you, there were a lot of emotions with that. So I'm going to share for the first time, really, what that looked like and how I navigated it.  

So we're going to be vulnerable. We're going to be honest. And the reason I wanted to record this episode is that no matter how dedicated we are to building our businesses and becoming entrepreneurs, life will happen—the good, bad, and ugly. And divorces, partnership breakups, losing key members on your team, all of that matters. And you have to still get up in the morning, still show up for your team, still show up for your students and your clients, still run your business. Let's talk about it. 

Okay. So first up is Patrice Washington, and she's been on the show a bunch of times, so you likely already know her. But I'll let her tell you a little bit about herself if you haven't met her yet. So let’s bring on Patrice. 

Patrice, thanks so much for coming back on the show. 

PATRICE: I feel like a regular now. 

AMY: I know! 

PATRICE: Am I a regular? 

AMY: We can make this—like, we’re going to be co-hosts soon. [unclear 04:07], definitely. 

Well, even though you've been on the show a bunch of times, some people are listening are brand new to the show. So tell them a little bit about who you are and what you do. 

PATRICE: So I've been known for over a decade as America's Money Maven, but I'm really known as a podcaster as well, a bestselling author, a coach, a transformational speaker. I'm really a woman who is just passionate about helping people redefine wealth for themselves. So even though I have the financial-expert background, what I really get excited about is teaching people that wealth is so much more than just money and material possessions. I like us to really lean into the original twelfth-century definition of wealth, which says it's about the condition of well-being. So you know this, Amy, with my degree in financial psychology, behavioral finance, I really like to explore the other parts of our lives that impact our finances, even when we're not thinking about it. 

AMY: Okay. I've never heard you explain it quite like that, and that was so spot on. Every time you have done a talk for my audience, they are blown away. They are obsessed with you. They hang on every word. And so I've always loved for you to come on the show and speak on the stages.  

But today's a little bit different. We're going to be talking about something that I know you have been talking about over on your platform, and I wanted to bring it over here because I want to talk to you about going through a divorce as an entrepreneur. So can we get into that? 

PATRICE: We can, yeah. 

AMY: So first of all, how long were you and your husband together before deciding to part ways?  

PATRICE: We were married fourteen and a half years, and together almost twenty years. So pretty much half my life, I was with my husband. 

AMY: Wow. And you have one daughter, Reagan, right? 

PATRICE: Yes. We have a fifteen-year-old daughter. 

AMY: Fifteen-year-old daughter. Okay, so tell me this. When did you start to feel like your relationship was not working out, possibly coming to a close, and what happened there? 

PATRICE: I really started to feel it right around my fortieth birthday, which was March 2021. And so I had heard for many years that a woman turns forty and something just happens and things click and all this stuff. But for me, I had recently hired a life coach, and in talking to the life coach, you know, I was telling her that I felt really fulfilled in my business. I feel like I'm in a really good place. I've worked so hard. I went from, in the last recession, literally going from a seven-figure business to scraping up change. Now I've rebuilt this career. I have this amazing platform, all of this media attention, wonderful clients, and something feels off. I'm working, I'm moving forward, I'm making progress, and something just doesn't feel right. And she said, “You should do a willing-to-lose list.”  

AMY: Ooh. 

PATRICE: And I said, “What does that mean?” 

AMY: Yeah. 

PATRICE: And she's like, “It's not that you want to lose anything, but what would you be willing to lose to truly become all of who you believe God is calling you to be in this season?” And in full transparency, one of the first things that came to me was my husband, and I didn’t want to see it in that moment. I didn’t want to acknowledge that. It wasn’t a part of the original plan. You don’t get married, thinking, “Yeah, this is not going to work out.” I literally have envisioned going to pick up grandkids with this person one day, and just living out our lives together. And so even though it dropped in my spirit, I think I did what a lot of people do: I tried to dismiss it and ignore it, and I went down the path of what sounds better and what is easier.  

So I made a list of things around my house, you know, business things I was doing. I did a full list, Amy, of everything under the sun. And because I'm a doer and a high achiever, I was knocking out the list like nobody's business right up until September of 2021. So about six months had gone by. I had done probably 80, 90 percent of the things on the list, and yet there was still this knowing that something needed to shift. And then I had a few conversations with people very close with me and finally got to the point where I could acknowledge that I didn't feel like my marriage served the highest and best use of my energy, my life, my time. And I started to really sit with the fact that—how would I say this?—that there's no prize for getting to the end of your life and saying, “Well, I stuck it out.”  

AMY: Yes.  

PATRICE: You know? I had to be honest about that.  

AMY: Absolutely. And when you started to get more honest about the fact that your marriage was no longer serving you in the way you wanted it to, when you went and talked to your husband, was he surprised by this? Were you on the same page? What did that dynamic look like? 

PATRICE: He felt blindsided. And full transparency, he felt blindsided, but it also felt like he knew it was coming. So it didn't feel like he was that blindsided, but he referenced being blindsided. But I will say in our case—I mean, one of the things you know I talk about this on my podcast—I really sat with, “God, how do I untie this with as much dignity and grace and peace as possible?” And so even though it was an uncomfortable conversation, and there have been uncomfortable conversations throughout the process, the separation, the final divorce and all those things, it was never nasty. It was never mean spirited. It was never, like, a bunch of fighting back and forth. It was just very much, like, this is what's true and real for me, and I have to stick with that and honor what’s true and real for me and not do what I did for so many years—not just in marriage, but in my life—not live for other people, but live with Patrice and what matters in this season to her.  

AMY: And I really do believe—my parents went through a divorce after twenty-five years of marriage, and one of the biggest gifts they gave to my sister and I is that they were nice to each other. They did keep it as civil as they could. They were both hurt, but I didn't see fighting and arguing and pitting one person against the other. The biggest gift we could have gotten. And so I think that even though you were doing it for you and making sure you were taking care of yourself, I think your daughter, also, that was such a gift to her. 

PATRICE: I definitely think so. You know, my ex-husband and I just had a conversation in the garage just this past weekend, and we were saying and acknowledging what a gift it is that our daughter can hold space for both of us, that she, you know, has been raised with the idea of, like, yes, you can honor your feelings, you can honor your emotions, but you also have to still respect that mom and dad are human. We're not machines just because we're your parents. And it has been such a blessing.  

I actually texted her today, Amy, and I told her that it was such an honor being her mother and witnessing how amazing her emotional intelligence is and just her awareness and how intuitive she is. And you know, we sat there in the garage and talked about how amazing this human being is that we both had a hand in creating and in raising and that we should both be so grateful that she's given us such grace to both move on with our lives and do what's best for us even though it was hard for her because she's only known us. The way that she has just managed this whole thing is, like, I could cry thinking about it. 

AMY: Listen, I'm a little biased because I get to hear about her and watch her online, of course, and I've talked to you about her behind the scenes. She's extra special. She's an old soul. And the things you two have discussed and her understanding of this experience is incredible.  

PATRICE: Yeah. 

AMY: So I totally understand why you would say, “Wow, this girl's amazing.” So I love that you and now your ex-husband can talk about that.  

But I want you to share with me, what has been some of the hardest parts about going through a divorce as an entrepreneur? I can only imagine that it’s a little bit different than if you’re in a nine-to-five job and not calling the shots and running the show and bringing in the money and all of that. So what’s been a little bit challenging to navigate? 

PATRICE: I would say, going through this experience has reminded me why the six pillars that I teach from at Redefining Wealth are so important.  

AMY: Tell me more about that. 

PATRICE: Because, you know, when I talk about the pillars, you know, one of the first things I say is the fifth pillar, becoming your best self. It’s about being mentally and physically well. I see how easy it can be to slip into not taking care of yourself, to getting in a slump, to feeling overwhelmed in all the things. And I think because going to therapy has been a regular part of my maintenance, I don't just go to therapy in crisis. I'm just a person who maintains with biweekly therapy at the minimum, and I ramp it up if something is actually going on. So because I already had a process for how I process life, I literally just leaned into the process, right? It wasn't a matter of trying to figure out what I believed or figure out what my coping mechanisms were. I already had someone who was in relationship with me, my therapist, and supporting me. So navigating what that felt like just came with a bit more ease, I have to say, because I wasn't trying to figure it out. It just was.  

You know this: I already take care of my body. You know I'm very—you know, Amy, I'm always in the gym.  

AMY: Yeah. You’re looking good, girl. I'm always, like, what is happening? Yes, you’re very dedicated. 

PATRICE: Yeah, but you know what? The gym for me is so purposeful. Like, it’s not just about, oh, I want to look cute in a dress. It is one of the ways that I've learned to manage stress. It's one of the ways that I go and just, you know, free my mind. There is so much more to it. And so really leaning into that is a healthier way to deal with it, because some people will lean into drinking or binge eating or doing other things that really, it allows your outside to reflect the chaos that's going on on the inside, right? 

AMY: Absolutely. 

PATRICE: So when people said to me, “Oh, you're glowing,” or “You look good,” or, like, you know, it's because internally I'm still in that mode of just doing the work. And so because I really use the pillars to inform my life—I hate to say this—like, it has not been, I think what a lot of people thought.  

So, Amy, I will tell you, people will be like, “You don't have to be strong. You can tell me if you're crumbling.” I'm like, “Uh.” 

AMY: “I'm not.” I love that you bring this up, because the biggest lesson I think all of us can take from this is that you had a ritual of taking care of yourself mentally and physically while you were married. While the marriage even wasn't going good at the end, you still were showing up, taking care of yourself. So when you were faced with something so very hard—I mean, divorce is hard. It's like a death sometimes. It feels like a death is what I've been told by other people—you were still able to go on with your life and stay centered because you had done the work before the hard stuff happened. 

PATRICE: Yeah. And that's what I think it is for anyone but entrepreneurs in particular. I think that we thrive when we are taking care of ourselves first because we are responsible for so many other things. We are responsible for other people's livelihoods. And we have clients, and we have so many people who are depending on us. Now, that's not to say that you don't take a step back if you need it and when you need it, right? It's not to say that, because on the days that I needed to honor just sacred rest and just taking a step back and just being fully present with my daughter and not doing any work, I absolutely did those things. But I was, because again, I was already in a rhythm of honoring myself mentally, physically, spiritually, financially, making good choices, then I was more prepared and equipped to go through that experience. 

But, I mean, you know, as an entrepreneur, of course, there's so many things that cross your mind, Amy. One of mine was, like, “What's going to happen to my business? Will I have to give up half of my business? Or will I have to pay alimony? Or will I have to…?” And I had to consider carefully all of those considerations before I even moved forward.  

But one thing I will say as an entrepreneur, we are creators. We are people who solve problems, right? We bring solutions to problems. And even in knowing that some of those things could be a possibility—in my case, thank God, they were not. We were able to move through this amicably and very quickly—but even knowing that as a creator, I also had to trust that if I created it before, I'll create it again. 

AMY: Amen.  

Okay, so, I haven’t gone through a divorce, but I went through a partnership breakup, which felt like a work divorce. And I always talk about the day I realized, “If this all gets taken away from me, I can do it again,” the confidence was incredible. Like, I had to believe it, though. 

PATRICE: Yeah. 

AMY: And I knew I was okay. Like, I would not ever want for anything, if I kept that in mind all the time. And so I love—I was going to ask you some of the lessons you've learned along the way. That had to have been a big lesson, knowing you would be fine.  

PATRICE: I will be fine either way, because whenever you're honoring yourself by being radically honest, you're always going to be fine, right? Most of the time, we're not honest with ourselves because we don't want to deal with the consequences of what that honesty will bring, because it may mean that we need to shift some things, that we need to create boundaries, that we need to leave some things behind. And many of us are just not comfortable with the thought of, “Oh my gosh, it's going to require something different of me.” But once you settle into the fact that, “But I will be fine no matter what,” and you know I always say this about the faith pillar at Redefining Wealth, this is about understanding that nothing is happening to me; it's happening for me. 

AMY: Amen.  

PATRICE: This must be coming because there's a lesson or a blessing that I'm going to get out of it. There are, you know, things that I'll be able to teach my audience and connect with people on that I never thought were going to be a part of my platform, but now here we are. So I'm not going to be afraid to talk about it. I won't allow it to be weaponized, because it's something that can be a blessing and help heal other people, which are, so much of the lessons that I've shared on the podcast, those are the DMs and the emails that I get now. They're overwhelmingly from women, mostly entrepreneurs, I believe, as well, who are like, “Thank you. Just thank you for sharing,” right? And sharing not from a place of trying to throw anyone under the bus, but being genuine about, this is your experience. 

But I have to tell you, Amy, the biggest lesson I learned is that I had to truly give my ex-husband the dignity of his own process, because it wasn't fair that for months I had been mulling this over. He had no knowledge of that. And then when I decided to say something, and we started that journey of separating and divorce, I thought because my whole intention was to do it with dignity, that as long as I was nice and as long as I watched my facial expressions or watched my words or any of those things, he should be able to handle it, and he should be happy that I'm not a mean or nasty person.  

AMY: Right. 

PATRICE: And so one time a few months ago, we had a difficult conversation, and it was one of the first really, really difficult conversations through the whole thing. It was difficult in a different way, where I was like, “Oh, we're having a real disagreement for the first time, like a really big one.” And it clicked for me: just because you want a divorce with dignity, that doesn't mean that you are going to agree on everything, and he still deserves the dignity of going through his grieving process. And if he is in denial or if he is in his anger portion or if he is in any part, because we know the grief process is all over the place, it's different for everyone, you don’t get to hold against him that he was nice two days ago and now today you think that he’s not being nice. You don’t get to manage that. He is entitled to the dignity of his own process. And I had to go back and apologize to him for trying to manage his process. Not my responsibility, not what anyone asked me to do, and I realized that I was trying to control so much of what this looked like that I didn't allow him the space to fully accept what was happening. And that was really, really big for me and, also, just when I apologized to him as well, it was like, “Yeah. You were wrong for that.” 

AMY: Yeah. Yeah, he was like, “Okay, thank you. I needed that. I needed that apology.” 

PATRICE: Yeah. 

AMY: You know, while you were talking, I was thinking, when I got out of my partnership, my business exploded. And the number one reason for that is that I stepped into a new space, a new level, a new me, really. And letting go of a partner, I thought, “Well, it's just me, and I better figure this out.” And so I just became so different. Have you felt different? Have you showed up in your business different, letting go of something that was no longer serving you? 

PATRICE: You know, I'll tell you what. My theme for this next year is effortless. That's my word for the year. And I realize that my tendency to overcomplicate things or to see things as like, “Oh, it requires a million pieces to get this moving,” was a part of how I distracted myself in different seasons from being honest about the unfulfillment that I was experiencing in my marriage. So it made it very easy to be busy, even though I never—so, not busy in the sense because you know I'm all about peace, right? So not busy in the sense that I was doing a million things, but that I could get so consumed in even doing a few things that it didn't create the space to always sit and really process what I was actually feeling underneath the surface.  

And to be honest, it wasn't that I was living in a lie, because I didn't know what it was. I just felt like something wasn't right, and I was dealing with childhood trauma and all these other things. So I was in therapy and life coaching and dealing with other things. But really, really, once I turned forty, it was like, if you really dig deeply, these are the ways that you're compromising yourself in different areas, and it all stems from, “I don't want to deal with this.”  

And so to finally deal with that and start to clear that clutter, I have been so much more focused in my business. I have removed a lot of unnecessary people, places, events, offers, anything, and gotten back to the essential things that I want to do. And I'm doing it with so much more ease that, like, there's so much more ease to it because I'm looking at how do I—I still do hard things, right? but how do I do hard things more simplistically? And now I have the space to see that, whereas I think I couldn't see it because it was better for me to be consumed— 

AMY: Absolutely. 

PATRICE: —in some seasons with work. Yeah. 

AMY: I think massive clarity comes out of making these really big decisions that are so very scary.  

So I guess my last question for you is this: what's one piece of advice that you can offer someone who might be in a similar situation? Someone right now is listening, and they're like, “I know I need to address this.” Specifically, “I know I'm in a marriage that I'm not happy with.” What kind of advice, especially coming from one entrepreneur to another, what would you say to them? 

PATRICE: I would say to block some sacred time to step away, even if it's just a day or a weekend or a solo trip or an Airbnb for the night, and just allow yourself to journal like I did about, what would you be willing to lose? Not that you want to lose, but what would you be willing to lose in order to have all that you know you truly can be? And allow yourself to be radically honest. Like, don’t police the answers. Don't write it down as if someone's going to find your journal and read your deepest thoughts. Write it as if you are a man or woman who just desires to be free, to be free to truly be fulfilled, because you deserve it, because you're worthy of it, because you are capable. I don't advocate for divorce. I'm not someone who's like, “Everybody, leave your partner and live your best life.” Like, I'm not saying that at all, right? But I think the people who are listening that feel this in their bellies, Amy, they already knew.  

AMY: Yeah, they do.  

PATRICE: They knew it before this conversation. They've known it for a while. And it has been hard to accept, dreaming a new dream. It's been hard to accept that what you once prayed for doesn't feel like a fit anymore. And I just want to encourage everyone that, you know, it is okay to accept when a season is over, and it doesn't have to be bad. We were not fussing and cussing and beating on each other and doing—like, we had a very normal family, like, a very church-going, -attending family. And we have a beautiful daughter, who plays all these sports, and we look like a great couple. Yes, all of that is true. However, it's okay to accept when a season is no longer serving you and when a season is up. It doesn't have to be bad to be complete. 

AMY: Yes. Oh, so true.  

Patrice, I cannot thank you enough. We've never had a conversation like this on the show, and I think it was absolutely needed. So people are going to fall in love with you. Just every word that comes out of your mouth, we're always hanging onto every word. So where can they learn more about you? Where can they find out about you and everything you do? 

PATRICE: Well, I will say for the purposes of this conversation, like, come on over to the Redefining Wealth Podcast. You can download it wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. And I will say if you are in this season as well, where you're thinking through this, I want to invite you to listen to a couple of episodes in particular. Look for “Dream a New Dream.” Look for “I Did It My Way,” is a great one. And also, listen to “The Wait LESS Season,” because in that episode, Amy, I had someone speak over my life that not only would I be weightless, like, I am letting go of a relationship that's meant a lot to me most of my life, but because of that, I opened up the space to wait less for the things and the blessings that are assigned to me. And in that episode, I really just break that down and then just, you know, pass that on and declare that over other people who are in this season. So go to the Redefining Wealth Podcast, look for those three episodes, and I hope that they bless you.  

AMY: Oh, beautiful. I’m going to link those in the show notes as well so people can find them easily.  

Patrice, thanks again for joining me, and I can't wait till you come back for more.  

PATRICE: Thanks, Amy. 

AMY: All right. Wasn't Patrice just amazing? When she shares her heart and the honesty of what her divorce looked like, I feel like it's so valuable for other people that are going through that, or God forbid, or will go through that in the future. So, I love her, and I love her story. And she has just been so strong throughout the entire experience, and it's been beautiful to see. 

Now, I want to bring on my friend Meghan Linsey. So if you've been following me for a while, it wasn't that long ago that my team came to Nashville, and I brought them to a recording studio of a professional singer-songwriter, and we got to write our own song. If you look on Instagram, it's there somewhere. But it was so much fun. Well, we were in the studio of my friend Meghan Linsey, who is a singer-songwriter. She has an incredible, incredible repertoire of not only songs, but also who she's been on stage with, the things she's been able to do. I'm going to ask her about that a little bit to kind of set the stage. But she's incredible. You might know her from The Voice. She was in season eight. She was the second runner up. And since then, she's gone on to do incredible things with her career. I tease her that she's lived many lives because if she had a list of all of her accolades, it would blow your mind. I mean, she's been on stage with Reba McEntire. I know I'm showing my age here, but that is very impressive. But she's also been on stage with so many other people you would absolutely know. And so if you want to research her, learn a little bit more, you can. But we are talking about her partnership breakup. So I won't make you wait any longer. Let's bring on Meghan. 

Hey, Meghan. Thanks so much for showing up. I'm so glad you're here. 

MEGHAN LINSEY: Thanks for having me. 

AMY: This is going to be fun. So I mentioned this in the intro, but for those of you who don't yet know Meghan, when you saw my song with my team, where we were in that studio and we got to record our own song, it was with Meghan. Meghan, everyone cannot stop talking about it. 

MEGHAN: Oh, good. That was so much fun, though. I had a blast. You guys are awesome. 

AMY: It was a great time. It was a great time.  

So today we're going to talk about something a little bit different. A lot of my audience knows that I went through a business breakup a few years ago, and it derailed me. It was the hardest thing I've ever gone through. It was, like, a whole year of crying, basically. But I came out the other end, and thank God everything turned out really, really well. But it was one of the most-scariest things I've ever gone through. So because my audience already knows my story, I thought, I know you have a really important story in terms of what your journey has looked like. And so before we get into all of it, though, for those that don't yet know you, tell everyone a little bit about yourself. 

MEGHAN: Well, I am an artist, a songwriter, entrepreneur. I moved to Nashville eighteen years ago, so I moved here in 2004—I was eighteen years old—just to, like, pursue music, pursue my dream, you know, to make music and to write songs. And I met my partner, my ex, when I was working downtown in a bar. And we were actually dating at first, and then we kind of got together, you know, from a business aspect and, like, created a band.  

And so I ended up on Big Machine Records, which is a record label in Nashville. I was there for two or three years with Steel Magnolia, and then left there, started doing my own thing. Ended up, you know, on The Voice, and just have continued to figure out ways to, you know, continue to make music and tour and continue to be able to sustain it. So it's just been, it's been a crazy ride. 

AMY: A crazy ride. When we came into your studio, you have all these pictures of people that you've either collaborated with or met with or did something with or on stage with. Holy cow, the list of people blew my mind. I feel like you've lived ten lives. Does it feel like that? 

MEGHAN: It does. Yeah. It's crazy. Like, I know it. I know for sure I've lived at least three or four, but it feels like ten. It's been awesome, though, you know? It's like you just keep pushing forward, and it's like I've gotten to where—I mean, I literally have had so many pinch-me moments, where I'm just like, I can't believe I'm in a room with this person, or I can't believe I'm getting to collaborate with this person. And it's just, you know, it's just been like—it's all part of the journey, you know? It's just really, really cool to be able to make music for a living is insane. 

AMY: Insane. The life you live, I’m just in awe and so very impressed every single time I get to spend time with you.  

So, okay, here's what I want to ask you. Your partner, so you had, he was a romantic partner but also a business partner. You were in a band together, right? 

MEGHAN: Yeah. 

AMY: Okay. Where was that in the timeline of everything? That was before The Voice? 

MEGHAN: That was pre The Voice, yeah. This would have been, like, 2009, 2010. 

AMY: Okay. So early on, early on. And the name of your band was…? 

MEGHAN: Steel Magnolia. 

AMY: Yeah. So Steel Magnolia was the name of your band. And it was the two of you, right? 

MEGHAN: Yeah. Just the two of us. We were a male-female country duo. 

AMY: And how long were you two together in terms of business? 

MEGHAN: Oh, goodness. Let's see. Um, about eight years, I guess.  

AMY: A long time. 

MEGHAN: Yeah. 

AMY: Okay, that was a long time.  

So I want to talk about what it looks like when—first of all, is it storming where you are?  

MEGHAN: Yes. 

AMY: We're both in Nashville. It is storming really loud right now all of a sudden. 

MEGHAN: Yeah. It's, like, a tornado watch or something. 

AMY: Okay, yeah. It’s kind of scary out there.  

MEGHAN: It’s appropriate for this conversation, trust. 

AMY: Exactly. This is so perfect.  

Okay, so you were together eight years. And first of all, why did you decide to go into a partnership? Like, you could have stayed solo, and you could have done amazing things. What made you think, you know, “I want to get into this partnership with this guy”? 

MEGHAN: I mean, initially, I was just young, you know? I think I was twenty, twenty years old when we met, so I was really young, and I was, you know, in love. And I was, you know, it was exciting. So at the beginning, it was just more about, like, our relationship, and then we kind of started writing songs and collaborating together.  

And he was so different than me. Like, he was very rock and roll and came from that kind of world and, you know, had been writing song—you know, he’s a little older than me, so he’d been writing songs longer than me. And then I, you know, obviously have, like, soul roots. I’m from New Orleans and, obviously, had been in Nashville for a little while doing my thing. So we kind of just like—it was like a yin and yang, you know? We kind of brought different things to the table.  

And when we got together, it was just a more unique sound and a more unique thing. I think that, you know, for us to be doing that as a male-female duo was also unique. And so that was kind of the angle. It was like, okay, well, we love making music together, at the time, and it's different. It was something different. 

AMY: Yeah, absolutely. And so you guys had some really great success. Talk about some of the stages you were on together. 

MEGHAN: Oh, my gosh. We did everything. I literally made, like, I was all, back then—I mean, I still am, obviously, very into, like, law of attraction, all that stuff—but I was very into The Secret at the time. So I wrote down my list of, you know, everything I wanted to do, and I literally crossed everything off in a year. It was crazy.  

AMY: Whoa. Whoa. 

MEGHAN: I wanted to play the Grand Ole Opry, and at the end of the year, I was playing it every other month. I wanted to do Titan Stadium. I did it for CMA Fest, Letterman Show, Kimmel, all of these things were on my list of things that I wanted to do. And yeah, we just kept crossing them—I mean, honestly, went beyond my list to things that I didn't even think were possible. So it was just, like, it was a crazy whirlwind of, you know, a couple of years there where it felt like all my dreams were coming true. 

AMY: Yes. So it worked. The partnership was working, and you guys got on amazing stages, did amazing things together. So when did you start to think, “Wait a second. This isn't working anymore,” and you started to have those feelings of, “I might need to get out”? 

MEGHAN: It was kind of like that the whole time, to be fair, like, even from the very beginning. It was very much, like, a lot of red flags from the beginning, but it was also, like, okay, well, it's working. And I just always had to work harder. Like, I was the one kind of keeping the train on the tracks, you know? 

AMY: Yes. 

MEGHAN: So that was—I had a lot of hats that I wore and a lot of jobs that I had to do. And, you know, I was just like, “Okay, well, I'm in it. I'm doing it.” We had a record deal. You know, we had binding contracts with big companies. And so it was just like, okay, this is where we're at. This is what we're doing. And so I just kept pushing forward and kept trying to keep things, keep things going on track. And, you know, eventually, it's, like, it's really hard to, you know—you can't control another person, and you can't make them do what you want them to do. And it just becomes frustrating, and it's almost like you're carrying all this extra weight all the time. So it kind of got to that point, where I was just like, Okay, I'm exhausted. This isn't fun anymore. I'm just like, I can't do it. I just couldn't do it anymore. 

AMY: Okay, so tell me this. What was one of your biggest fears, like, when you started to think, “I think I need to get out. I don't think this is going to work”? Like, what was one of your biggest fears about that? Because this was your career. It wasn't just a relationship; it was a career. So it's a big deal. 

MEGHAN: Yeah. And it was, like, we had just had—I mean, we had—our first single went top three at country radio, and it's, like, we had had, like, all these successes. And so a lot of people were counting on us, you know, as far as, like, our record label and our team, you know, for their livelihood, you know? We're just like, “Okay, I'm employing all these people, and I have this record deal, and all these people are counting on me, and all these people are invested.” And so that was my biggest fear was just letting everyone else around me down, you know? I didn't want to do that, you know? I was like, “I can handle this. I can do it.” You know, I wasn't as worried about me at the time. Now I've, you know, lots of therapy. But I've, you know, I've come a long way. But at the time, I was just so worried about, like, oh, gosh, how is this going to impact everyone else, you know? 

AMY: Absolutely. I could see that being a big one.  

Okay. So you decided that you were going to get out. And for me, when I got out of my partnership was like a whole year-long thing. There were lawyers involved. It got really scary for a while. I thought I was going to lose my business. For you, did it drag on; or was it, like, one morning you woke up, and we're done, and you went your separate ways? Like, what did the transition look like? 

MEGHAN: Oh, it definitely drug on. It was at least a year, I think. We had commitments. We had dates booked and things— 

AMY: Oh, wow. 

MEGHAN: —you know, on the books with promoters and stuff where we had to. We were committed. So there was that. 

There was also just all the red tape of, like, we had come off of a reality show, and so that's how we had gotten our record deal. So there was, like, the middleman of the reality-show production team and the record label and us. So it was a lot. I mean, I think we went through three lawyers just to try to get out of our deals. And then once we were out of our deals, we were like, “Okay, well, now we're broke. So we have to tour together to make money to pay our lawyers.” 

AMY: Ah! 

MEGHAN: So it was—I mean, it was probably a couple-years’ process of just, like, the first year was more laying low and the, you know, lawyer stuff. And then the next year was like, “Okay, I think we can tolerate each other enough to go out on the road and play shows and make some money,” because we desperately needed it, you know? 

AMY: Right. Makes sense.  

So, tell me this. When you look back now, and you're like, “Oh, my gosh. I can't believe I went through that,” because it was a public breakup. That's a whole other thing. Like, when I went through it, no one knew what was going on. But for you, when they realized you guys weren't going to be touring together and all of that, it's very public. So what are some of the lessons that you've learned about having a partnership in business and in love and getting out of that? What do you think you learned along the way? 

MEGHAN: I mean, I think you learn this, obviously, like, through your twenties, I think this was a big lesson for me. But in general, I just think like, just not losing myself in a partnership or a relationship, because I was just giving everything to everyone, and I wasn't keeping anything for myself. And so I was very, was very loyal, but almost really to a fault. And I was very overextended and just taking on the weight of everything around me all the time. And so I think I learned, you know, to not do that, to put myself first. And, you know, I'm wiser with my choices about who I'm getting into business with and who I'm willing to partner with, you know? I think you really have to be on the same page, just even morally, too. Like, it's just, like, you have to be aligned, you know? And so, yeah. I don't know. I learned a lot. 

AMY: So you now are married to Tyler, who also is a songwriter, and so you are with somebody in the industry. Do did you find yourself navigating things differently with Tyler? because I'm assuming, like, you're in business together in different ways now, right? 

MEGHAN: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, we're definitely in business. And I swore I wouldn't do that again. Like, I was like, I'm never going to date someone in the music business and then work with them. Like, I was not going to do that. And I really think it just depends on the person, you know? And Tyler's so, like, laid back and easygoing and amazing. Like, just the best human I've ever met in my life. But, yeah, it's just so easy. Like, it's so easy. Like, he lets me shine, which is nice, you know? I never had that before. 

AMY: Yeah. 

MEGHAN: But also, you know, and vice versa. Like, it's very much, like, a partner—a true partnership, and we support each other. And we definitely have our own things, you know? 

AMY: Yeah. 

MEGHAN: I do my things, he does his things, and we come together to work on things together. And so it's a really balanced partnership. 

AMY: I can tell. He's fantastic. It's fun to see you two together. And you're right: he totally lets you shine, as you should. And it's really fun to see the love between you two.  

So I love that even though you went through this really hard thing that I'm assuming knocked you to the ground many times, you weren't someone that was so jaded that you wouldn't allow something amazing to happen in the next chapter of your life. So I think it's really cool that you were able to make this work with Tyler and kind of go into it heart open and ready to do it.  

But I guess when I think about your old partner—this is going to be a weird question—but if he was standing in front of you right now and you had to thank him for something—so you had to thank him for something, thinking about the lessons you've learned, the transition you went through—what do you think you would say to him? 

MEGHAN: Oh, man. I mean, I'm very grateful, honestly, for that relationship. It's, like, it taught me so much. And honestly, like, he was beyond me in different areas, you know, like as far as just, like, when we got together, he was just more versed in the world, you know? And so I learned a lot. I learned a lot being with him. And we wrote great songs together. And it was a great—I mean, there were aspects that were great. It was just very, you know, it was like this a lot of the time.  

But I don’t know. I’m grateful. I am grateful for just the lessons I learned. And I had to go through that, you know? I feel like that—I don't feel like I would be where I'm at without having gone through that and not knowing, like, that taught me who I am, you know? 

AMY: Yes. 

MEGHAN: And really just having to, you know—there was a time when, at the very end of our, like, right before the—it was, like, the beginning of the end, when he went to—he had a substance-abuse problem, and he went to rehab. And I had to go out on the Reba tour because we were slotted to open for Reba for an entire tour. And he went two weeks before the tour started. And I had to work up the set and figure it all out without him in a matter of two weeks. And I really learned—I was twenty-three years old at the time. It's, like, I learned so much about myself and what I'm capable of and how strong I am and just the will to persevere. And, like, truly, like, it was such a learning curve for me. And it was like, I think it was one of the, like, the defining moments in my life. And honestly, one of the moments where I realized, okay, I can do this. I'm capable. Like, I figured out, you know, who I was and what I was made of, really. 

AMY: That’s how I felt about my partnership. I didn't even know I was made of the stuff I was made of until I didn’t have him anymore. And I thought, “I better get it together. Like, I got to figure this out on my own.” So I felt the same way.  

So if you're thinking about—there's some people listening right now that are in relationships, partnerships, situations that they know they don't want to be in, but they have not yet found the courage to move forward. What kind of advice would you give somebody who just feels stuck in a partnership or relationship that they really don't want to be in? 

MEGHAN: I mean, I think your life is a culmination of the decisions that you make, right? And so for me, it was, like, I had to make that decision, and I just had to stick to it. Like, I knew it wasn't the right situation for me. I knew it was going to be hard. I knew everybody was going to be advising me against it because it wasn't in everybody's best interest around me for us to split up. So it was like, I just—but I also knew in my gut, like, I'm not happy. I have to do what's right for me. And so I had to really stick to my guns. And it really was like ripping a Band-Aid off, to be honest with you, because it was not easy, and it didn't feel good going through that process. I mean, really. I thought it felt good in, like, the way that I felt like a weight was off of my shoulders. But it also, like, it was hard. It was nitty gritty, hard. And I just had to, you know, it's something I had to go through and get out on the other side. And I’m so—oh, my gosh—on the other side of it. So grateful that I did because I knew it wasn’t right, you know? 

AMY: Exactly. It’s so true.  

Okay, Meghan, this is so valuable. I so appreciate you sharing this. I know this is—you're on a marketing podcast, talking about a breakup with a partner. I know it's just kind of an odd situation, but I wanted to have these conversations, and you were the first person I thought of. So, first of all, I love our friendship. I love that you're a new friend of mine, and I get to know you more. And thank you so, so much for coming on the show. 

MEGHAN: Oh, my gosh. Thank you. I love you and adore you and admire you and just everything that you are about and what you stand for. Like, I just, I admire you a lot, so I really appreciate the opportunity to be on your podcast. 

AMY: Ah, mutual. 

Okay. So tell everybody where they can find you. Tell everyone, like, your latest single, which we were blasting in the car after we left your studio, by the way.  

MEGHAN: Oh, good.  

AMY: People are going to want to listen, and they're going to want to know where to find you. So give me a little info. 

MEGHAN: Okay. Well, I always tell everybody to follow me on Instagram, but it's @meghanlinsey. It's M-E-G-H-A-N L-I-N-S-E-Y. And then my newest single—I have two singles out right now. One is called If You Need Me, Don't. 

AMY: My favorite. I love it. 

MEGHAN: And then the newest, newest one is called You Ruined That Song For Me. 

AMY: Oh, so good. So good. They're both excellent. 

MEGHAN: Thank you. Yeah. So, that’s it. 

AMY: We'll link to everything in the show notes so everyone can go find you. If you like a little soul, bluesy, country all mixed together, you’re going to be obsessed with Meghan. So go check her out. And thanks so much for being here. 

MEGHAN: Thank you. 

AMY: I love that Meghan shared her story with all of us, because she's not in the Internet marketing world, and she definitely doesn't show up on marketing podcasts that much. But I really do believe that when you're going through a transition, a relationship, a partnership breakup, I think you need to hear that you're not alone. And with Patrice and with Meghan, hopefully, this episode has done just that. 

But I've got one more story for you, and it's mine, so let's jump into it.  

Okay. So now you get a little solo from me. And I'm going to share what it was like to transition from having my sidekick of seven years, Chloe, who we call Cho, who grew into the role of chief marketing officer on my team, to having her leave my team at the end of 2021.  

So to give you a little backstory, Chloe was my first full-time hire, and she came on as a project manager. And at the time, all of my other employees were contractors, and I was very scared to pay someone a salary. And at the time, I don't even think I had health insurance yet. So she came on, and she came from Deepak Chopra. So she was in a job where there was security. She had benefits. She had a whole team she was working with. She would show up to the office, and then all of a sudden, she's working with this girl who has no team and doesn't have an office and doesn't have health insurance. And Cho just wanted something different, and she wanted to work remotely, and so she took a chance. And I'm so glad she did. 

So her first big assignment was to help us launch a program I used to have called Webinars that Convert. And we told her—at the time, I had a partner on the team—so together we told her that if she helped us hit our goals for that launch, she was going to get, like, a ten-thousand-dollar raise. And so we started her off a little lower than we had planned—we wanted her to prove that she could actually get us results—and then we were going to boost her salary. And she said she worked so hard on that first launch because she was determined to get that raise. And I just love that about her.  

And from day one, Cho worked her butt off. She treated my business like it was her own. I think that was the first time that I had seen anything like that before, where someone came into a business and acted as though the importance of everything was on them. Like, she took so much responsibility, probably too much because that's her personality. But it was so incredible to see and gave me so much confidence in working with her.  

And so what happened, why we became so close and our relationship is, like, ride or die—it still is to this day, for the record—is that I was in a partnership.  

I've talked about that. I didn't talk about it here on this episode because I've talked about it so much in other episodes. I talk about it in my book Two Weeks’ Notice. But I got a partner about a few years into my business, a 50/50 partner, and then it started to not work out anymore, and I had to get out of that partnership. It was very scary. I thought I was going to lose my business. We didn’t have any contract in place, which was so stupid, so we had to get lawyers involved and mediation. It was just really messy for a while and very scary. 

And when I told Cho that I was getting out of the partnership—and she worked very closely with my partner—and so when I told her I’m getting out, she looked at me, and she said, “What do you need? I'm on your side. I will support you through this. What do you need?” And even talking about it now, I could cry because I knew in that moment I was not alone, and I had somebody who was going to help me navigate this. And it got very shaky for a while, and she didn't waver. She's just like, “We'll figure it out. We'll do what we need to do. We'll find the money. Will find the opportunities. We will do this.” And since that moment, she has been my ride or die.  

And so, basically, she, like I said, was with me for seven years, and the last few years were tough. I think when we look at it, she was chief marketing officer, which meant big strategy, really had to understand the business and her team, and there are tons of different projects, so many moving pieces. But at the same time, she started as a project manager and never could really let go of that role because she was so good at it and because we probably didn't have enough support on the team. And so she found one foot in project managing specific projects and then another foot in managing the whole team.  

And looking back, that was just too much. It was too much on her, so much stress and overwhelm. And we couldn’t figure out how to get her out of having one foot in each of those roles, even though we tried.  

And so it got to the point that I finally said to her, “I think we need to talk about you transitioning.” And the reason why I said it to her is I knew she'd never say it to me. She was such a ride or die, so loyal to me and the company that I don't even think the words could come out of her mouth. But at the same time, I know she was feeling it. And she made some comments that, like, we were on the same page, but we had to be brave enough to talk about it.  

So in October of 2021, we got on a call, and I said to her, “Are you going to leave?” And then we both just started crying. I know, it was not very professional, but we just couldn't even hold it together. And I was devastated when she said, “I think we need to talk about it.” It was the first time she actually voiced that.  

And I hate to even talk about it now because it makes me very emotional because I felt like I was losing a best friend, but a best business friend. And let me tell you, when you become best friends with someone in your business, it does not make things easier. It makes things more fun and definitely gives you so much security and comfort. But navigating a friendship while you're working is really difficult, and I don't suggest it. I mean, I'm so grateful for my friendship with Cho, but I don't suggest getting that close to employees, because it makes it very hard for them to be able to come to you and tell you what's not working and confide in you as a boss, not as a friend. So it got really murky, and there was some codependency that we both agree was absolutely there.  

But we also made magic together. Cho saw my business go from a million dollars to sixteen million dollars. She saw us go through major transitions. She saw us have the best launches of our life. She saw us struggle at times. Like, she was in it all.  

And I loved having a sidekick. What I found about myself, and I've gone through some therapy about this, is I don't want to always do it alone. And even though I have a team of twenty people, sometimes it feels alone when you don't have someone to pitch and catch with. And I don’t want to do that with Hobie. Number one, he doesn't understand my business at a deep level like, let's say, Cho does. But two, going to my husband with all the challenges in my business, it makes it hard for him because he's a man and he wants to solve it, but he has no idea how to. And I just want him to listen, and sometimes that's hard for him, and he doesn't know what to say. So being able to call up Cho at any time and be like, “I got to tell you what just happened,” and just, like, she totally gets it, that was huge for me. But it also created codependency.  

And so when—my first thought when she said, “I think we need to talk about a transition,” I genuinely thought, “My business is going to suffer.” She had a pulse on things even beyond me. Like, I gave up the reins of some areas. And I think you have to when your business gets this big. I can't know everything. But she was really, really in the weeds with systems and processes and marketing and understanding the numbers at the most intimate level. And I got scared that she knew more than me in some areas. What was I going to do about that? And so that was a really scary time.  

And I worked with my coach, and I was reminded that I started this business. I know this business. Saying Cho knew more than me was just me being afraid. It wasn't necessarily true. And Cho would teach me what I needed to know if she did have something dialed in that I wasn't aware of. Like, we didn't have a bad breakup, and so she was there to usher in this transition. 

So speaking of this transition, we talked in October, and we gave ourselves three months. We first told the leadership team. They were shocked. And then we told her team. They were shocked. And then we told the whole business, and they were shocked. So everyone was very shocked. They could understand why the transition needed to happen, but they were very, very scared, and just, like, oh, my gosh.  

And so the transition took three months. Cho did everything in her power to make it as easy as possible. I went through the first month that I couldn't talk about it without crying.  

Now, listen, as a leader, I am not proud of that, but it felt very personal to me. I felt at times that she—we had a really rough 2021. We didn't hit our goals. Things weren't working like they used to. I was going through a huge personal transition of moving from California to Nashville. I got into a really big depression, which I talked about on the show, and I just couldn't find my footing here. So I was personally going through something. Then, the anxiety and depression took over, and then this happened. So I was in a bad place.  

So talking about her leaving, I—still to this day, it makes me sad. Like, losing her made me so sad because loved working with her. I loved it. She got me. She understood me. She knew my weaknesses. She protected me. She was— again, you hear the codependency, right? She was just, like, such a huge part of the fabric of my business and so much of it. Almost half of my business she's been here. And I felt like she was leaving me. I couldn't let go of that one. That's where I had to get some therapy. I felt like she was deserting me, not the business. I couldn't even see it as a business decision. And that part was really tough. I was afraid to run the business without her. I was sad that my best friend was leaving the business, and I felt like she was leaving me during a really hard year.  

Now, I'm not saying anything on this podcast that Cho and I haven't talked about. I've looked her in the face and I said, “I feel like you're deserting me.” And of course, that is not what she was doing, but I couldn't get past it for a couple months. And looking at it now, I know that she was just taking care of herself.  

So at the time, she had just bought a house. In six months’ time she was getting married, and she wants to have babies. So her life was changing, and she didn't want to have such a huge responsibility on her. And so when we first made the decision, we didn't talk about her working as a contractor in my business or how she would stay in the business. I do believe in clean cuts. Like, I needed to let her go first before we talked about everything else. So we did that.  

And about a month into her transition, she came to me, and she said, “Amy, I don't want to be out of the business completely. I want to change my role, but I want to be a contractor.” And that was, like, amazing to hear. And I was scared because I didn't want to pull her back in when she didn't want to be in it. But she was coming to me with this. So we decided that she was going to be a full-time contractor—or not full time, but she decided to only contract for my business. She didn't want to be a contractor for a bunch of people. She doesn't want to go work for somebody else. She doesn't want a contract for anyone else. These are her words, not mine.  

And so she is running my entire book launch. And at the time of this recording, phase one of the book launch is happening, and it is working so incredibly well. We are best sellers already on Amazon. Out of the top one hundred books on barnesandnoble.com, we are number seven. What in the world. Her strategies are incredible, we work together incredibly well, and I love that I got to have her for this book launch, and hopefully, some other projects in the future. I think there's going to be a lot of babies in her future, and I’ll only get a little sliver of her, but I'll take what I can get.  

So here's the deal, why I wanted to share this story. The lessons I learned are, number one, you're going to lose people. Even people you love that you don't want to lose in your business, you will lose them if you’re in business for many, many years. And you have to be okay to feeling sad, feeling like—all the emotions, really. Like, I let myself feel all the emotions. I didn't hide it. And like I said, my team saw me cry probably a hundred times over this. And I got it together eventually, but I gave myself time.  

Number two, I really do believe—and this is weird for me to say, because you all have heard how much I love Cho. She is still my best friend—but you can survive no matter who you lose on your team. I thought my business would crumble. I really did. In a moment of weakness, I thought I'm screwed. And I knew in my heart of hearts that wasn't true. But in my vulnerable moments, I was very scared. And then, very shortly, I said, “Amy, you have been through so many things in your business. You have done this. You've created this business. You've built it from zero to where it's at.” And my coach reminded me of that as well.  

And so I quickly picked up where she left off. I stepped into the role of running the marketing department for a good five months until I found someone. And then I just started saying, “Okay, how can this be an opportunity? What does this make possible?” Michael Hyatt, my business coach, teaches me that. What does this make possible? And we started to tweak some things in the department. I elevated some people's roles so they can grow in the department. We found out who the leaders were. It's been an incredible ride. And we are surpassing our goals from 2021. It's a much better year than 2021. We’re hitting our goals. We are surpassing our goal by millions. Like, it's a good year. And I did that without Cho.  

Now, do I wish she was still here? I do. I tease her all the time, like, “Okay, the joke's over. When are you coming back?” Like, I tease her all the time about it, and she doesn't bite. She's like, ha ha. And then we go on with talking about the book launch.  

So it's been a wild ride. And I'm embarrassed to share with you that I thought I would suffer, my business would suffer. Like, I lost a little confidence for a moment there, but it came right back. And we're stronger than ever, and she cheers us on. She has great relationships with people on my team. We are still very close. She came to the lake this summer with her husband, and we just got to have fun. But we still talk about business, which is really cool. She wants to hear about it, and she'll offer insight. And when I have a problem, once in a while—I try to really temper this—but I call her. So it was a very big transition, for sure, but I know that I can make it work no matter what. At the end of the day, I am the owner of the business. I am in charge. I am a good leader, and I can figure this out.  

And also, I surrounded myself with amazing friends who helped me with the transition. When it was happening, Jasmine Star was on speed dial, and she'd remind me every day, “You will be okay. You will be okay.” You've got to find friends that understand you and understand entrepreneurship, and you have to be willing to nurture that friendship and be vulnerable so that they know you're real. I say things to Jasmine—and also, another person I text all the time is Jenna Kutcher—and I say things to them I would never say publicly. But you need those friends and family to be able to do that with.  

So find them. Find them because you don't have to go through this alone. And I sure as heck couldn't have gone through this transition of losing my CMO after seven years. I couldn't have done that alone. I talked to a therapist. I talked to a coach. I talked to my peers, and I talked to my family. And I talked to Cho. The fact that we were able to keep our working and personal relationship intact is probably one of the things I'm most grateful and proud of. But my friends, you're going to lose people along the way, and it's going to hurt. Let it hurt, get back up, dust yourself off, and get back out there. 

At the time of this recording, I will say that I did hire a VP, and she was here for five months, and it did not work out. Mutually, together, we came and had some hard conversations, and we just knew, for reasons that I won't share here because it's her story as well, it just wasn't a good fit. And so I had to have those hard conversations, and she was incredibly open and honest with me as well. We navigated through it. I hope we’ll remain friends. We have. And I will figure it out. I actually might not hire a VP any time soon. There's some transition in my department that I see some growth for some people that we could maybe work it out with who we have. So we're going to navigate that. 

So even with a multi-million-dollar business, with a really strong team, I still have to navigate the hiring and the firing and the right fits and all of that and the transitions. So welcome to entrepreneurship, my friend. You and I are no different. We have to do all of these things. But at the end of the day, I love what I do. I love my business—it is my baby—and I love the students I work with. So I'm going to figure it out no matter what comes my way. And I know you, too, will do the same.  

So there you have it. A huge shout out to my amazing guests who showed up and were so brave about sharing on these vulnerable topics. I'm so grateful for their honesty, and I hope it brought some of you out there comfort and encouragement to keep going no matter what. Like I said at the beginning of this episode, transitions are a part of life and a part of entrepreneurship. If you're anything like me, change can be hard. So if you're experiencing a transition or a breakup in your life, in your business or your personal life, be gentle with yourself. Give yourself the time and space you need and find some support. That part's very important. You don't want to have to go through this alone, and you don't have to be strong all the time. Let those around you who love you support you. You've got this, my friend. 

As always, thank you so much for joining me for another episode of Online Marketing Made Easy. If you haven't already, please go and leave a rating and a review. Your comments light me up, and they help me to share this podcast with others. 

I'll see you next week, same time, same place. Bye for now.