Listen To My Latest Podcast Episode:

#519: The Gratitude Series: Anthony Trucks

Listen To My Latest Podcast Episode:#519: The Gratitude Series: Anthony Trucks

JENNA KUTCHER: “When we think about, like, leaving the nine to five to do the 24/7, so many of us that are achievers are obsessed with things like efficiency and productivity. And I had this realization of, like, we are working to be more efficient so that with the time we save, we can work more.” 

AMY PORTERFIELD: “Yes.” 

JENNA: “When do we ever get off of this crazy wagon wheel? And there's this story in the book that I love, and it talks about how there was this monk who goes to visit New York City. And the tour guide is like, ‘Hey, we can save ten minutes if we go into the bowels of the city and go through the subway.’ And so they come out of the ground from the subway, and the monk goes and sits down on a park bench. And the guy is like, ‘Hey, what are you doing?’ And the monk's like, ‘I'm about to enjoy the ten minutes we just saved.’  

And I think this is such a valuable lesson for entrepreneurs because we can quit the whole hustle, but we never leave the game behind because that's usually innate within us. And sometimes I think that that 24/7 thing comes when we're trying to prove ourselves right or trying to earn our worth.” 

INTRO: I’m Amy Porterfield, ex-corporate girl turned CEO of a multi-seven-figure business. But it wasn't all that long ago that I lacked the confidence, the budget, and the time to focus on growing my small-but-mighty business. Fast forward past many failed attempts and lessons learned, and you'll see the business I have today, one that changes lives and gives me more freedom than I ever thought possible, one that used to only exist as a daydream. I created the Online Marketing Made Easy podcast to give you simple, actionable, step-by-step strategies to help you do the same. If you're an ambitious entrepreneur, or one in the making, who's looking to create a business that makes an impact and a life you love, you're in the right place, friend. Let's get started. 

AMY: If you love Online Marketing Made Easy, you’ve got to check out Entrepreneurs on Fire, hosted by my dear friend John Lee Dumas. He discusses things like how to live tax free as an entrepreneur—uh, yes, please—and shares inspiring stories like how a college sophomore turned twenty dollars, cell phone, and a dream into a cookie company valued at over five hundred million dollars. I mean, you got to love stories like that. He'll leave you with actionable steps and fired up. Be sure to check out Entrepreneurs on Fire wherever you get your podcasts. 

Welcome, welcome, friend. Listen, if you're expecting the usual Jenna and Amy interview, where we banter about marketing and podcasting and list building, well, you're in for a treat in a rare interview. My guest, who is no stranger to the podcast, Jenna Kutcher, is here today, and we're diving into the deep end to talk about a few things that often get swept under the rug a little too easily, things like taking a real, raw inventory of your life so you can stop just going through the motions; we're talking about the golden handcuffs, what they are, and how to avoid being sucked into their wicked trap; and how to not only quit your job, but quit the hustle game as an entrepreneur; and why asking for help can change your entire life. And I want you to pay close attention to how Jenna explains boundaries and what they do for you. The way she explained it in this interview totally made me think of them differently. And for this former yes girl, that was an important message. So boundaries, pay close attention to that in the interview. And also, my personal favorite, Jenna shares about a woman who found perseverance through another woman's story and how your story can impact others. I loved that part of this interview.  

So, Jenna’s getting ready to release her first book ever, How Are You, Really? That's the name of the book. How Are You, Really?  And let me tell you, it's one of the best books to be released this year, hands down. I've been very much behind the scenes with her. I'm not working on it. She just shares so much of the experience. And because we both wrote a book at the same time, we swap stories almost on the daily. So it's really fun to see this come to life. The book is amazing. So, she's also going to share a little bit about why she wrote the book, who it's for, and all that good stuff, but I think you're going to love the different take on this interview, so get comfy, and let's do it. 

Well, hey, there, Jenna. Good to see you again. 

JENNA: Okay, thank you so much for having me back on the show. It is beginning to feel like a second home for the best reasons possible. 

AMY: Absolutely. I love when you come on the show. These episodes are always a huge hit. But I warned my audience in the intro. I said this is not going to be, like, our typical Amy/Jenna episode. This is going deeper, it's going in a different direction, and I think it's going to be the best one we've ever done.  

JENNA: Yeah. 

AMY: So I have a question for you. Very cheesy, but I have to say it. How are you, really?  

JENNA: Oh my gosh. You know what, Amy? When I named my book that, I should have anticipated that every time somebody sees me now, they ask, and I'm like— 

AMY: Everyone. 

JENNA: —I have to be honest. I have to be vulnerable. Yes, I am good. I texted you this morning because we are just in a big sleep transition at our house with our little ones. And it's wild because I genuinely feel more energized in my life than I ever have. However, I am getting the least amount of sleep I ever have as a mom. So I was up literally fourteen times last night. There was a thunderstorm. And I learned a very valuable lesson that I want to pass along so that me being awake at four in the morning makes sense.  

AMY: Okay.  

JENNA: Coco heard thunder and, like, freaked out and, like, came running into our room and was, like, laying on the floor and whatever. And I learned the power of reframing, and then I thought about how I could reframe things in my life. So I brought her back to her room. We were laying on her floor together, snuggled under a blanket, and I was like, “Isn't it so cool that the sky is talking to us? What do you think it is saying?” And we literally had a conversation with the sky. Every time it would thunder, Coco would say, “Oh, hey, there, sky. What are you doing?” And I thought about how oftentimes we could reframe things in our own life of the things that we're afraid of, like what it actually could be, and so that was my life lesson I learned at four in the morning.  

AMY: And it's true. Reframing is such a powerful tool. I probably do it ten times a day. So— 

JENNA: Oh, a million. 

AMY: Yes. I love that. I love that great reminder. It was funny. When Jenna and I were talking before we came on, I said, “Do you wear an Oura ring to track your sleep?” And Jenna's like, “That would be so depressing to get those results right now, so no.”  

JENNA: I would feel more exhausted going through my day if it was telling me, like, you got three hours and twenty-three minutes. 

AMY: You wouldn't even get three hours and twenty-three minutes. So, yes. You're in a very special season of life, two babies and kicking off a huge book launch. It's kind of impressive.  

So, here's the first question I want to ask you. In the last couple of years, I've seen a lot of people, myself included, kind of falling into the day to day of going through the motions. And in your book, you lay out—and I thought this was brilliant—a life inventory, a feelings file you call it, that can really put things in perspective for someone. So can you share how to take an inventory of your life and what to do with the information that comes out of it? 

JENNA: Yeah. Okay, so I love this question, and I think it's perfect for you and I to talk about because a lot of times when we look at our calendars, there are so many tasks on it. And I don't know if it ever happens to you, but I'll look at my calendar and be like, “Who booked this?” And then I'm like, “Oh, I did. It was me that filled it up this way.” But I think a lot of times it's easy in hindsight, like a year from now, to look back on this time and be like, “Oh, I wasn't doing the right things,” and we beat ourselves up. But we so seldom look ahead and say, “Okay, what's on here that maybe shouldn't be?” or “Maybe I can't avoid this thing, but maybe I can lessen the impact of it.”  

And the reason why I bring this up is that we are at a super-interesting place as a world, like, as a collective world, as we are kind of moving forward and figuring out, what lessons do I want to take from these previous years into this new world that we're entering, and how do I want to come out of it a changed person? And for me, like, the life inventory is really just a check in. Like, have you ever had somebody tell you, like, “Amy, loosen your jaw,” and you're like, “I didn't realize I was clenching it”? Or they're like, “Take a deep breath,” and you're like, “I didn't realize that while I was breathing, it wasn't an actual good breath.”  

And I feel like the same thing goes with the life inventory, where it's like, “Oh, I need to look at what I'm doing. And, one, am I passionate about it? Two, is it aligned with my values? But three, does it bring me joy?” And if you can't answer yes to each of those questions, it's time for you to kind of do a little analysis about, like, where are you falling off, or where are you following a map that isn't leading you to a destination you want to arrive at? And how can you kind of figure out ways to add more joy, to be more inspired, and to do more work that matters in your life?  

AMY: One of the things that I think you have done incredibly well is you have those moments of joy outside of work— 

JENNA: Yes. 

AMY: —and you have created that and cultivated it. How have you been able to do that? Has that always been the case for you since you started this business? 

JENNA: Amy, there is a part in my book about you and this thing that we did together. 

AMY: I saw it. I loved it.  

JENNA: This is actually a big shifting point for me, where I remember we went on a girls’ trip, and I remember we were, you know, talking about, like, here's all these things I'm going to do by the time we see each other next. And I remember thinking to myself—I was super-pregnant with Coco—I remember, like, walking around in my sports bras because I’m, like, shirts don't even fit right now. And I remember, like, sitting there in the rocking chair, with my hands on my belly, and thinking, “You know, I don't know what I'll have done the next time you see me.” And that thought scared me because as someone who has been an achiever, who is a three on the Enneagram, who loves to do things and do big things, for the first time in my life, I was coming up blank, and not in a bad way, but in a way that scared me. And I have had to learn how to rest, like, literally train myself in how to rest and be present outside of work so that when I'm in work, it is so laser focused that I feel like I finished the day and I'm like, “I know exactly what I got done today,” because so many entrepreneurs, specifically, are busy all of the time. But if you ask them, “What did you actually get done today?” they'd have a really hard time labeling and saying this thing led to this result. It's like we're doing so much, but we're not doing the right things. 

And so when I started getting laser focused on my business, it really opened up that whitespace, that blank room, for my life that I filled with a lot of play and adventure and enjoyment and hobbies. And I mean, if you would have asked me even a few years ago, “What do you do outside of work?” I don't know if I would have had anything to say.  

AMY: Oh, I love that. Okay. So I love this question. So some people are listening and they're like, “I do nothing outside of work.” So name two or three things that you love to do outside of work.  

JENNA: Yeah. So hobbies became a funny topic for Drew and I because we were driving home from our lake house one time, and we were talking about one of our mutual friends. And we were like, “I wonder what she does outside of work and motherhood.” And I was like, “What do I do outside of work and motherhood?” And it was kind of this wake-up call, where it was, like, where did we forget to do things outside of the roles we play, whether it's career or family or relational? And it was kind of this wake-up call for Drew and I, where we were like, “We don't have hobbies, either.”  

And for me, so COVID was a very interesting experience because I was really challenged as we had a toddler, who was getting busier and more alert and alive. It was like, “What do I want for her life?” And then like, “Am I doing those things?” So we often talk about, like, we don't want kids in front of screens. Okay, well, guess what we do a lot of our days: spend a lot of time in front of screens.  

And so we started biking, which was incredible. We inherited these bikes when we bought our place, and they were just hanging in the garage. And it was like, “Let's take them on a spin.” We started hiking, which to me used to be so painful. Like, why would anyone go up and down a hill? It makes no sense to me. And then we also started doing puzzles. So it was, like, random things like that— 

AMY: Oh, fun! Yeah. 

JENNA: —where it was, like, not for the end goal or the output, but to do things in community with a family that we're in. And it was so fun watching Coco be able to be a part and experience those things, too. What about you? What are some hobbies that you do?  

AMY: Okay, I don't have a lot. I didn't want you to ask me that, Jenna. In my mind, I was like, oh my god, I do not have hobbies.  

JENNA: Yeah. 

AMY: And you just said something—and I want to have hobbies. I want to make this a priority. And you just said something that I thought was really valuable, and you said, it's not like—there's no end goal here. Like, you don't have to strive— 

JENNA: Yeah. 

AMY: —to get a certain number. Or in my business, every day I'm striving. 

JENNA: Yeah. Yes. 

AMY: Every single day. So do a puzzle, and obviously the end game is to finish it, but— 

JENNA: But then you break it all up and put it back in the box, right?  

AMY: Exactly. Like, those are the kind of things that I need to do. You know, at the time of this recording, not when it goes live, but at the time of the recording, I'm going on this sabbatical, and I'm going to find a hobby. While I'm away— 

JENNA: Yes, yes. 

AMY: —I'm going to find a hobby. That's my commitment. 

JENNA: I would challenge you to take it even a step further and to do something with your hands, whether it is gardening or knitting or something like that. There is something so beautiful about a tactile experience that I think we miss out on a lot with our— 

AMY: Yeah. 

JENNA: — 2D digital world. And there's nothing that will train you to create just for the sake of creating than creating something with Play-Doh and then smushing it back into the canister so that it doesn't dry out. Like— 

AMY: Okay, yeah. 

JENNA: —you have to learn how to not be focused on the end result, but the actual art of playing in and of itself. 

AMY: That is powerful. Right there, in and of itself, I love that. Okay. So I'm going to find a hobby, work with my hands. I'll keep you updated in terms of what it is.  

JENNA: Deal.  

AMY: Okay. All right. So the next question I wanted to ask you was about this concept that you talk about in your book called golden handcuffs. And I think so many people listening right now are going to identify with this. So what did you do to step—well, first of all, what are golden handcuffs, what did you do to step out of them, and how can my listeners find the courage to do the same?  

JENNA: Yeah. So the golden handcuffs are essentially this culture that we've created in the workplace where jobs are offering you all of these benefits that make you feel crazy to not be grateful and make you feel even crazier to desire to leave. But if we look at the great resignation, it's, like, one in four people right now are exploring different career opportunities, or leaving their jobs without having a backup plan because they're just fed up or they're not wanting to have those golden handcuffs anymore.  

And there's a story in my book that starts off with one of my dearest friends, and I have to tell you the full-circle moment that happened with it. And every time I talk to her—she's one of my best friends. We've been friends for decades—every time I talk to her, she is hating her job, and she's been in this job for ten years. And she'll always, you know, complain about it, rightfully so, and then she'll follow up the complaint with, “But, you know, I fly first class, and I have unlimited vacation, and there's a ping-pong table in the breakroom.” And finally, one time I was like, “Do you even take vacation?” And she's like, “No.” And I was like, “And when you fly first class, what are you doing?” And she's like, “Working.” And I was like, “And do you ever play ping pong?” And she's like, “No.” And I said, “They continually keep you there and stuck because they keep talking about these amazing benefits, but they don't benefit you or your life. They are not adding any value to your life.”  

And let me tell you, after I handed in the final manuscript, I took out that chapter, and I didn't say her name, because I never wanted her to feel shame in staying. I think that says a lot about her character that she stayed. And I sent her that chapter, and guess what? She quit her job after reading it— 

AMY: Stop it. 

JENNA: —because she had never recognized that she was just staying and staying. And there's this line in the book where I talk about how it's, like, she stayed when she missed daycare pick up, she stayed when her kids were sick, she stayed when she had panic attacks, she stayed. And it makes me emotional because I’m like, how many people are stuck and staying because of these stupid benefits that don't even benefit their own life?  

And it was crazy because when I sent it to her, it took her a little while to respond because I think it was, like, a sucker punch of this reality wakeup call of, like, you're right. I've been talking about hating this for so long, and I haven't done anything about it. And she recently, just last night, posted a photo of her, with her new company that she's working for, on a work trip, talking about how much she loved her coworkers. 

AMY: Oh. 

JENNA: And it's just crazy because it's, like, these golden handcuffs are happening in our lives, whether it's corporate world or relational or whatever, but we keep staying because we're grateful humans, which is a beautiful attribute that I hope we never lose. But gratitude can also keep us stuck in the cycle of the mundane. It can keep us stuck in these places where we're like, “But I should be grateful.”  

So for me, it was this massive wake-up call when my boss gave me a five-year plan without ever asking me, “What do you want in the next five years?” And I was like, hold up. You're assuming that I want more responsibilities and want to work more and want to do all these things, without even asking me am I happy where I'm at or would I even want to do less, or what does this look like in my five-year plan? And so for me, it was really this realization of, like, I'm climbing someone else's ladder, and it doesn't feel good. And all of these titles and salary increases and benefits aren't benefiting or changing my life in any way. In fact, they're making me feel more stuck. 

AMY: Yes, absolutely. I'm there with you 1,000,000%. I think someone listening right now probably was like, “Holy cow. I have literally been holding on to benefits that don't even serve me. Why am I still there?” 

JENNA: Yeah. 

AMY: Absolutely. I really do feel like someone just really felt that in their gut, and I hope so.  

Okay, so, one thing I hear from my audience all the time is that they take the leap into entrepreneurship, and it's like they traded that nine to five for a 24/7 business. And it's a hard realization when your goal was to gain more freedom, and you make this leap, and now, you mention, you know, at one point you had quit the job, but you hadn't quit the game. That's what you had said in the book. You quit the job, but you hadn’t quit the game. And that one hit me hard because I was like, oh, I get that one. So how did that play out in you, and how did you make the shift to finally experience the freedom in life that you had dreamt of creating?  

JENNA: Yeah. It was really interesting. I was interviewing my mom the other day, and I just love asking her questions, and she had never told me this before, but she told me that when I was pregnant with Coco, her and my dad were slightly concerned at how motherhood would shake out because I loved work so much, right? Like, they saw these tendencies in me to, like, pour myself into work. And they didn't doubt that I'd be a good mom, but they questioned, like, how is motherhood going to influence my life, and how am I going to feel about this deviation from the work that I had known? And what's super interesting to me about that is that I didn't ever have a why stronger than my work. I didn’t have reasons to unplug or disconnect. Like, work was my output, and I found my worth in that output, right? Like, so many of us measure if today was successful through what we create. We were just talking about it with hobbies. It's like, I'm going to take a hobby if it benefits me and makes me… you know?  

AMY: Yeah. 

JENNA: And it's, like, crazy. And what's really fascinating to me is that when we think about, like, leaving the nine to five to do the 24/7, so many of us that are achievers are obsessed with things like efficiency and productivity. And I had this realization of, like, we are working to be more efficient so that with the time we save, we can work more.  

AMY: Yes. 

JENNA: When do we ever get off of this crazy wagon wheel? And there's this story in the book that I love, and it talks about how there was this monk who goes to visit New York City. And the tour guide is like, “Hey, we can save ten minutes if we go into the bowels of the city and go through the subway.” And so they come out of the ground from the subway, and the monk goes and sits down on a park bench. And the guy is like, “Hey, what are you doing?” And the monk's like, “I'm about to enjoy the ten minutes we just saved.”  

And I think this is such a valuable lesson for entrepreneurs because we can quit the whole hustle, but we never leave the game behind because that's usually innate within us. And sometimes I think that that 24/7 thing comes when we're trying to prove ourselves right or trying to earn our worth. But what I realized in writing the book and one of my greatest realizations in doing it was that I love marketing, I love business, I love entrepreneurship, but entrepreneurship has only been the vehicle to get me to the life that I want. And I look at that life as a life that is filled with freedom and the power of choice. And so while I am obsessed with entrepreneurship—obviously, I talk about marketing and strategy a lot—that is literally just the processes that allow me to live the type of life I want. And I had never experienced the death of that life because I never had a why stronger than my work. And so while it's really easy for us to quit the nine to five and work 24/7, we've got to be intentional seekers and students to figure out what is the why behind this work, because my work only got better when my why got stronger.  

AMY: Amen. That is so true. My work only got better when my why got stronger. And obviously, we talk a lot about the why around here—why are you doing what you're doing—to get really clear on who you want to serve, and I think that's really important. 

I don't know about you, but I often find myself reflecting back and thinking about where my business was just a year ago. And to be honest, growth hasn't looked exactly like I thought it would. Like, last year was a really tough year for me mentally, but I came out of that more clear and ready to take on the world. So that minor setback was actually what I needed. 

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Okay, so that actually leads me to the next question I had for you, because when you're getting clear about your why and really making sure that you're building the kind of life that you want, along the way, especially as an entrepreneur, you're going to have challenges, you're going to have missteps, and one of the things that you talk about in your book that I think is so important for my audience to hear is this fear of asking for help. 

JENNA: Oh, yes.  

AMY: So I love that you go there in the book. And I know you well, so I'm like, “Oh, yeah, that is definitely Jenna.” I don't see you asking for a lot of help in what you do, and you're very independent. But I loved what you shared. So can you share what led you to finally actually know that you wanted to ask for support and what lessons you learned along the way? because it's not necessarily your nature, or at least it wasn't.  

JENNA: Oh, gosh. No. Yeah. I was, like, the white knuckler with everything in my life. And something that I think is really interesting for a lot of entrepreneurs is they build these businesses that are super successful, but the business relies on them to show up. And one of the reasons why I love you and the work that you do is that you liberate people to create businesses that can run while you rest or while life happens.  

And in the book, I outline and just share a little bit about our fertility journey and our journey in growing our family, and it was one that was riddled with loss. And when we had our second loss, I was a wedding photographer, and I literally got the news on a Friday and had to show up and shoot a wedding on a Saturday. And I remember this feeling of feeling trapped in my own business. Like, I had built something wildly successful, more successful than I'd ever dreamed. But I promised myself, on that day when I had to show up and be happy and do my job while I was in the darkest place of my life, that I would never build something that didn't allow for a human moment.  

And it was so fascinating because the day that I got the news, the second time around, I was so angry because I was, like, I've already been through this. I've already tried to heal. I've already talked about this. Like, I've done all these things. But I got this ping for an email, and it was this girl named Caitlyn, who had reached out to me two times before, offering help as a virtual assistant. And both times I basically said, “Bug off. I'm good. I've got this.” And on the day that I got the news for the second time, I got a third email from her, and all I responded with was three words: I need help. And there were no caveats. There was no explanation. It was literally the most human moment of, like, I am in the fetal position and cannot respond to emails, nor does it feel even remotely important to my business. I need help.  

And what's been so fascinating to me on that journey is the more you ask for help, the easier it gets to ask for it and to receive it. And one of the things that I want to share, because your audience is so entrepreneurial, is this revelation that I've had, and it's even a recent one. And we talk a lot about, like, visionaries. A lot of us entrepreneurs are visionaries. We cast this vision. We have this idea. We set out with the work we do to live out this vision. But when we ask for and accept help, we are literally inviting missionaries to join us and to help us with the mission of living out the vision.  

And so when I look at my team, there's this line in the book where it's like, we're one plus one equals a million. I cannot do the work I do, to show up for over a million people every week, every month, without the missionaries that are my team members. And so asking for help is not weakness; it is adding strength to your vision. And it is, I mean, my business, my life, everything, everything has expanded in asking for and accepting help. And it is something that I think of that white-knuckle approach, where it's like you are gently releasing and opening your hands to what's possible.  

AMY: Ooh, so good. I love this idea of the missionaries. I never thought about it like that until you put it that way, but I think it's so very important.  

Okay. So I wanted to ask you about a very specific story in your book. You talk about this woman, Jen— 

JENNA: Yes. 

AMY: —and how because Brooke Shields shared her story, it gave her a newfound strength. It was such a beautiful story. So without giving away too much, but there's tons of stories in this book that you guys haven't heard, obviously, but what can we learn from this when it comes to boldly sharing our stories?  

JENNA: Yes. Oh my gosh. This is one of my favorite chapters. So, I'll tell the story because I just think it is so powerful, and I want your audience to hear it regardless.  

So I was at this event in New York City, and I was with the president of a massive, massive company, like, crazy, crazy, successful woman. And she had been a part of my fertility journey, kind of watching from the sidelines. And I was at this event with her. There were tons of women. It was kind of like this influencer-type event of just strong, powerful business women getting together to celebrate. It was right before the pandemic hit.  

And she goes, “Oh, where's your daughter?” And I'm like, “Oh, she's in Hawaii with Drew,” at the time. And I said, “I can't wait to get back to them.” And she goes, “Did I ever tell you that it took seven rounds of IVF to have my daughter, Maggie?” And I had met her daughter multiple times, and I had no idea. And I said to her, I said, “How many times did you want to give up?” And she looked me dead in the eye, and she goes, “Never.” And I said, “How is that possible?” IVF is one of the most brutal things a woman could go through. There's this cycle of, like, hope and fear, and there's so much, and there's medicine, and there's money, and there's so many facets to in-vitro fertilization that people don't even understand. And I said, “How could you possibly have gone through something this many times and not wanted to give up?” And she said, “Years ago, I watched this interview on TV, and Brooke Shields was on TV, and she said it took her seven times. And I knew that if she could do it seven times, that I could, too.”  

And it hit me so powerfully deep, that Brooke Shields probably forgot about this interview from years and years and years ago, and she had no idea that this beautiful twelve-year-old girl in New York City named Maggie existed because she shared this one piece of her story. And the craziest part was, is that Jen, this powerful president, had never let anyone in on her journey. And so even her vice president, who had worked with her for decades, came up— 

AMY: Oh, wow. 

JENNA: —to me at this event and said, “I had no idea Jen— 

AMY: Wow. 

JENNA: —had gone through that. I know her like the back of my hand.” Because after our conversation, Jen stood in front of the room in New York City, and said, “Jenna, and can I share about what we talked about?” I said, “Oh my gosh, please. This is so powerful.” And I had asked her, I said, “What would have happened if Brooke had never said that?” She goes, “I guess I never thought about that, but I would have never thrown my ring in that many times. Doctors were telling me it was impossible. I would have never done that.”  

And it was just this beautiful reminder that in that room that night, when Jen then shared her story, I believe that somebody was inspired to keep showing up in their life, whatever that looked like. And so it's just this power of our story and how it can impact lives and literally be responsible for lives. Isn't that crazy?  

AMY: It's crazy. And I love that story. And it actually helped me immensely, Jenna, because I think, you know, I'm not as open online as you are.  

JENNA: Yeah. 

AMY: But I've been, you know, over the years, much more vulnerable than I've ever been, and each time it feels a little awkward or a little much for me, I think. But there's some woman out there, that if she heard this, it could literally change the trajectory of her life in one way or another.  

JENNA: Yeah. 

AMY: And just the possibility of that makes me realize this story isn't necessarily all about me, with what I’m going to tell could actually be about someone else. So, my friends, if you're not telling the real truth, if you're not telling the stories that actually mean something, I encourage you to push yourselves. It's something that is not necessarily natural to me, but incredibly important.  

JENNA: Yes. 

AMY: And so, yeah, I love that you shared that in the book.  

Okay. So here's the deal. We are going to—well, first of all, I want to talk really briefly about your book specifically, and then I want to do my final rapid-fire questions for you. And they're not the questions I usually ask everyone else; I changed them up today.  

JENNA: Woo. 

AMY: So, before we get there, here's what I want to ask you. First of all, congratulations. I haven't actually said it. Congratulations on your beautiful book. It is such a valuable resource that so many of my listeners are going to love. So congrats. 

JENNA: Thank you. I feel like we have literally been on this journey together.  

AMY: We really have. Guys, like, we talk all the time.  

JENNA: You're like the godmother of my book, so congrats to you.  

AMY: I’ve never been a godmother of a book. I love it. I feel very close to this book and your experience.  

So tell me this: who did you write this book for?  

JENNA: Yeah. I mean, I wrote it for a lot of the friends in my life. And it was really fascinating through the writing process because conversations would just keep coming up with the people and the women that I have in my life. And I was like, oh my gosh. This is, like, a bigger thing. Like, you know, there's so many things, whether it was dissatisfaction in your job or fertility, or is more always better, or, you know, what do I want to take with me outside of this world? And so it was literally based on conversations of all generations of women, from my aunts, who were asking me questions, to my neighbors, to my college friends, to even learning lessons from my daughter. And so I really wrote this with just, like, the people that I love in my world, knowing that there are so many women out there who are looking to come home to themselves and not looking for another guru to tell them the five-step process. It's like we are just desiring to listen to ourselves again and to trust what we're hearing.  

AMY: Yes. Well, you've done a beautiful job. You should be so incredibly proud of the work you've done. And my friends, the book’s not out yet if you're listening to this the day it goes live. But if you listen to it a little bit after, it will be.  

But Jenna, where do they go to get the book? 

JENNA: Yeah. So you can go to howareyoureallybook.com. That's howareyoureallybook.com. Or you can just go to jennakutcher.com, and we'll have it plastered everywhere.  

But yeah, it has been quite a journey, and it's been so fun being on it with someone who is also in pursuit of something very similar.  

AMY: Yes, it has been fun. I feel like I'm part of your book launch, and I love every minute of it. So go grab the book. I highly, highly recommend it.  

Okay. So real quick, we have a few minutes left, and I want to do a rapid fire. So my first question—so curious what you're going to say to this— 

JENNA: Yeah. 

AMY: —what is something right now that you're, like, totally obsessed with? 

JENNA: Red-light therapy.  

AMY: I knew it! I knew she was going to say that! 

JENNA: You know what is so funny, Amy, is that Chloe, from your team, was in my DMs, and we were talking about all this nerdy stuff, and she was like, “I swear by my red light, and you guys got to get one.” My hus—or my fiancée was making fun of me—I guess it’d be husband at the time. 

AMY: Yeah. 

JENNA: My husband was making fun of me, and now he sits in front of it every night, and I was like, done, ordered. And so, yeah. 

AMY: Done. 

JENNA: So funny. 

AMY: So the morning you were doing your red light, and you got to wear these glasses, and you said, “Here I am, in front of my red light.” And then Drew and Coco come in with their own glasses, and they want to be a part of the fun. So now you’ve made it a family thing.  

JENNA: Absolutely. They're, like, eating cereal and talking to me while I'm sitting in front of it. I am just very curious about all of these different modalities to, like, feel energized. And I'm, like, going off the deep end, which is really fun.  

AMY: Well, I have a red light, and I'm going to start using it more consistently because you've been talking about it so much. So I'm all about it. But, my friends, go read about the value of or the benefits of red light. It's pretty incredible.  

JENNA: Yeah. 

AMY: Okay. So what is one thing that you wish you knew when you were first starting out? Like, something you wish you knew then that you know now, when you were first starting your business. 

JENNA: Yeah. That boundaries won't keep things or people or opportunities out of your life; they will keep you in your life. And I think that is the most— 

AMY: Ooh, that is good. 

JENNA: —valuable thing that you can do is to set boundaries and to keep them and communicate them well, because it will literally help you to live your life and not get on that 24/7 bandwagon that we were talking about. 

AMY: The way you said it was perfect: boundaries keep you in your life— 

JENNA: Yes. 

AMY: —and the more present and intentional we are, the happier we are. So that is beautiful. 

Okay, final question. What's one thing about you that we might not know? 

JENNA: That I…? Let me think. Oh, this is so good, Amy.  

AMY: I know there's some stuff about you that people just don't know. 

JENNA: I think I'm super funny, and I feel like it never gets communicated. I have these very deep thoughts in the middle of the night when I'm awake with my children, and they are so funny to me that I will sometimes start laughing. But I have a very goofy side— 

AMY: You do. 

JENNA: —and I think a lot of times when I am online, it comes off either more professional or, like, a little bit more, like, deep. But I think I'm really funny.  

AMY: Okay. I love that you think you're really funny. I think you're funny. And I do see that silly side of you. But I absolutely know my audience thinks I'm way more serious than I am.  

JENNA: Yes. You know what, Amy? Real quick. I remember listening to one of your earliest podcast episodes, and it was literally years and years and years ago. And you were, like—you had asked your audience for feedback, and they were telling you that they wish it wasn't so polished, because, like, you would edit out, like, your ums or your ahs— 

AMY: Totally. 

JENNA: And, like, I remember you being, like, “I'm going to challenge myself to, like, not be a perfectionist.” And I have to say, like, we've come a long way. Like, together. 

AMY: We really have. Jenna, I made a video the other day for a paid group that I have, and in the video I literally said the wrong date and time for something. And it was, like, three-fourths into the video. And I said, “I am not rerecording this video, my friends. I am just going to tell you the right date, and I do not care.” I would have never done that three or four years ago.  

JENNA: I love that. 

AMY: So, yeah, we've come a long way.  

JENNA: Yes. 

AMY: Well, my friend, I love you dearly. This has been such a fun experience to see you step into, like, even a bigger game with this book. It's going to change lives. Everyone, go get it. How Are You, Really? Go take advantage of this opportunity.  

And, Jenna, I love you so much. Thanks for being here.  

JENNA: I love you. Thank you. And I can't wait for people to read about it and see my mentions of Ms. Amy Porterfield in the pages.  

AMY: It was so fun. While I'm flipping through, I was like, “Oh, what?!” It was so great. So it was a fun read, so thank you so very much. 

Well, there you have it, friend. I hope this interview left you asking some big questions about where you are, where you're going, and what inspiration and your intuition are telling you is the next best step. I know that you are made for great things. I also know that sometimes it's easy to forget that. So here's what I hope you hear loud and clear: whatever tough things you may be facing, whatever negative voices relentlessly and unexpectedly pop up in your head, whatever opinions the naysayers have shared, I want you to find the strength to keep moving forward. Keep pushing towards the things that are on your heart, the things that you know deep down you're here to do. And if you need a little extra support and encouragement, go and get Jenna's book. I know it's going to help you. I've read the book. I think it's excellent. And I really do believe it's a different take. It's not a business book, but it will help you in your business and in your personal life. How Are You, Really? is the name of the book and a great question to ask.  

All right, my sweet friends. I cannot wait to see you again next week, same time, same place. Bye for now.